EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS The Army-McCarthy 1953-1954 Communist Witch Hunt THURSDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1953 New York, N.Y.

Click on photo for larger image October 20, 1953 In the Camp Evans Administration building (9001), the former Marconi Wireless Station Staff Hotel. (The building to the right)--->

    Over 47 persons from Camp Evans (aka Evans Signal Laboratory) testified at the Army Signal Corps Subversion and Espionage hearings.

Volume 3: begins on Paper page 2155 - adobe page 355.

STATEMENT OF ALLEN J. LOVENSTEIN (1922–1963);

AFTERNOON SESSION
[2:00 p.m.]

Mr. COHN. May we get your full name for the record, please?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Allen J. Lovenstein, L-o-v-e-n-s-t-e-i-n.
Mr. SCHINE. Your occupation?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Electrical engineer, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. And where are you currently employed?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. At Evans Signal Laboratory, Fort Monmouth, New Jersey.
Mr. SCHINE. That is the army laboratory?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. And what are your duties there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am a project engineer and in charge a subsection of the Radar Equipment Section of the Radar Branch at Evans.
Mr. SCHINE. And, as a project engineer, what do you do?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am responsible for development work on classified and unclassified ground radar equipment.
Mr. SCHINE. What is this ground radar equipment for?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It is for use by the different services of the army.
Mr. SCHINE. It involves—?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It involves classified information.
Mr. COHN. Some of it, in general terms, involves antiaircraft defense?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, it doesn’t.
Mr. COHN. Does any radar work done at Evans involve that?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know.
Mr. COHN. But your section doesn’t?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. In one way it does. I can’t give you the connection.
Mr. COHN. I don’t want the detail. I just want to speak in general terms when referring to classified information.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Could you repeat the question?
Mr. COHN. You say in one way it does relate to antiaircraft.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. That is enough.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I can be more explicit than that.
Mr. COHN. I don’t think it is necessary. It is highly classified work?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Some of it is secret, yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Radar, of course, can cover anything from ships to airplanes to many other projects about which the general public doesn’t know; is that not true?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir, that is true.
Mr. SCHINE. How long have you been doing this work?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I first became employed at Evans on the 17th of November, 1947.
Mr. SCHINE. And were you employed as a project engineer at that time?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I wasn’t. I attained successfully higher positions of responsibility.
Mr. SCHINE. What did you do prior to 1947?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Upon graduation from college——
Mr. SCHINE. Which college?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The College of the City of New York. City Col-lege.
Mr. SCHINE. What year was that?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Actually, I received my degree as of August of 1943. I was registered for summer courses during that year, to finish my credits for the degree. I didn’t quite finish. However, they gave me the credits. They were non-essential courses. And I wanted to go in the army.
Mr. SCHINE. What did you do? Just describe your occupation since you left college.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Following those months of army experience, I went to work for the Hammarlund H-a-m-m-a-r-l-u-n-d-Manufacturing Company. I believe the address was 460 West 34th Street.  I am not sure of the address. It was on West 34th Street almost at Tenth Avenue. Working for them, I did bench testing on that Hammerlund ‘‘Super-Pro.’’
Mr. SCHINE. How long did you work for them?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe I started working for them some time during the summer of 1946. I had been discharged in February, February 11, I believe it was, of 1946. And I worked for them until a lay-off I believe shortly after the first of the year, sometime around the first of the year 1947.
Mr. SCHINE. Yes. Roughly a year?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It was short of a year, yes,
Mr. SCHINE. And when you worked for them, did you handle government projects?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I didn’t.
Mr. SCHINE. Did they handle work for the government?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir, they did.
Mr. SCHINE. But you had no connection with the work they handled for the government?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I didn’t.
Mr. SCHINE. What were your functions in the army?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I was an enlisted man. I was sent to Camp Crowder, Missouri, and received my basic training there. I was there, I think, something like five weeks, and I was sent to Fort Monmouth, to the Signal School at Fort Monmouth. I went through the elements of radio, the elements of electricity, and then I was sent, on the 18th of February, 1944—I believe that is the correct date—to a camp in Pennsylvania. The name escapes me. It was a staging camp. It was outside of Sharon, Ohio. I remember that town. And from there I went to a camp at that time—I don’t know whether the information is classified now or not. I wasn’t supposed to give the name of the camp at that time, and I haven’t been told otherwise.
Mr. COHN. In connection with the atomic project?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Oh, no, sir. This was a port of embarkation.
Mr. SCHINE. And what were your duties in the army?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I was trained as a radio repair man. I was sent over along with seventeen other enlisted personnel, two captains, and one lieutenant colonel. His name was Lieutenant Colonel Edwards.  We were sent as a special detachment, and we had been led to believe that we were to be sent to the CBI. We landed in North Africa in May of 1947. We left the United States—I am sorry. I said ’47. It was ’44. We landed sometime late in April or early in May in North Africa, and from there we proceeded to Bombay, and
then across India to Calcutta, and I was on temporary duty at an installation at Kancharapara in India—K-a-n-c-h-a-r-a-p-a-r-a—I think it is, which was nothing more than a staging area.  At that point, the eighteen in the group and the two officers were broken up, and six of us—if it is important I can make sure of that number; I am not sure whether it was six or eight-six or eight of us were sent to a tank unit, the First Provisional Tank Group. One battalion was operating in Burma. One battalion was in reserve at Sedyia, S-e-d-y-i-a, in India. I was sent with the second battalion.  Shortly thereafter, we moved into the combat zone in Burma. We were kept in reserve.  After the war in Burma was concluded, I was sent back to the signal outfit I had been attached to, the Ninety-sixth Signal Battalion, and then after that the 988th Signal Service company. We went over the Lido and Burma Roads by truck, and I was assigned to the Northern Chinese combat area command, something like that, in Kunming, China, where I worked as a transmitter maintenance man at a radio station, servicing the Kunming command station.  I was there until, I believe, early in December 1945, when we were thrown back across the hutch to Calcutta, to kancharapara, the staging area.  We boarded ships in Calcutta. I remember that very well. I finally came down with malaria. I had been taking atabrine. When I came off it, I got it. I came across the Pacific, landed at Portland, came across the country, and was discharged at Fort Dix, on, I believe, the 11th of February 1946.
Mr. SCHINE. What was the name of the company you went to afterward?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The Hammarlund Manufacturing Company.
Mr. SCHINE. And you were there until the first part of 1947?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes. Then I went to work for the Pilotless Planes Division of the Fairchild Aviation Corporation.
Mr. SCHINE. What were your duties there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. My duties were as a technician, or it might have been called a junior engineer, in the development of test equipment for their product.
Mr. SCHINE. They did work for the army?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. For the navy.
Mr. SCHINE. And some of it was classified work?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. That is why I said, ‘‘product,’’ yes, sir.  Mr. SCHINE. How long were you at this job?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I was there until some time late in the summer.  I don’t remember the exact date. A strike was called.
Mr. SCHINE. Yes?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I had very mistakenly joined the union at the time the strike was called. I, along with what I thought was a majority of the people working in the department, went out. I don’t recall exactly how long I was out. It was something over two weeks, I believe. I became disillusioned.
Mr. SCHINE. What was the name of the union?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know. I believe it was associated with the CIO. I will give you a little information later on.  I became disillusioned, as I say. Things weren’t happening as we were led to believe they would happen. I was embarrassed. I didn’t want to go back in, because it just is an embarrassing situation.  I wasn’t quite satisfied with the work I had been doing. I wasn’t learning anything. I didn’t feel my capacities were being utilized.
Mr. SCHINE. So what was your next position?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The next position I had was with the Automatic Machine Winding Company, in East Newark, New Jersey.
Mr. SCHINE. What were the dates, roughly, that you worked there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe this is pretty specific. It was the first two complete weeks in November of 1947.  During the course of the strike, after I stopped going out to Long
Island, I put applications in to various companies. One was to the Automatic Machine Winding Company in East Newark.
Mr. SCHINE. Then you left there. And where did you go from there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I accepted a position at the Fort Monmouth Laboratories. I had previously put the application in.
Mr. SCHINE. And when did your work begin at the Fort Monmouth laboratories?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The 17th of November, 1947.
Mr. SCHINE. I see. When you took work with Fort Monmouth, would you give the committee the names of the references you used?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I can’t be sure. This was several years ago.
Mr. SCHINE. State the names that you might have used.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I might have used the names of people near the family. I believe I used the name of a very close friend, Professor Louis Rosenthal. I might have used one of my previous employers’ names, Mr. B. J. Garfunkel, who I had worked for during the summer.  I might have used the name of Mr. Samuel Bloomfield, who I had worked for part time, while I was still in college. I might have used the name of a cousin, Mr. Moses—we call him ‘‘Bub’’—Solomon. I might even have used someone’s name I knew at that time in the army. I don’t know.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you ever work at Aberdeen Proving Grounds?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, I did, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Where is this located?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This is at Aberdeen, Maryland.
Mr. SCHINE. When did you work there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I worked there on two separate occasions, actually.  There were some classified tests which we were involved with.
Mr. SCHINE. When you say ‘‘we,’’ whom do you mean?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This is a group of actually, I didn’t work for the Aberdeen Proving Grounds. I worked for the Signal Corps, and part of the work was at Aberdeen. I had people down there from my subsection.
Mr. SCHINE. When was this?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The first time I believe was a visit, a one-day visit, with Mr. Ducore and Mr. Edward Storck.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you spell the second name?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. S-t-o-r-c-k, Edward.
Mr. SCHINE. When was this?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This was, I believe, either in late October or November of 1950. I might be a year off.
Mr. SCHINE. You visited Mr. Storck and Mr. Ducore in the Aberdeen Proving Ground.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. There might have been someone else with me.  I am not sure.
Mr. SCHINE. To do some work there? How long were you there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Just that one day. There had been a conference in Washington which Mr. Ducore had attended, and he came back with certain information, and a directive or an authorization to work directly with the people at Aberdeen. The people’s names——
Mr. SCHINE. Where was the conference in Washington?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I assume the Pentagon. I don’t know.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know with whom the conference was?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I don’t.
Mr. SCHINE. Was Colonel Stoner head of the Signal Corps at that time? Or General Stoner; I am sorry.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I have never heard the name, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Proceed.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know who was the head at that time.
Mr. SCHINE. So you say Ducore came back from Washington with an authorization to go down to——
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. An authorization to work directly with the people at Aberdeen, I am trying to think of the civilian’s name at Aberdeen and the colonel’s name. It was a Lieutenant Colonel Hiester.
Mr. SCHINE. What was Ducore’s job at that time?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. At that time, I believe Mr. Edwards was still section chief and Mr. Ducore was deputy section chief in the radar section.
Mr. SCHINE. And it was routine for him to be in Washington and come back with an authorization to go down to Aberdeen Proving Grounds?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. And what was the second occasion you went to the Aberdeen Proving Grounds?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The second occasion was the day we brought equipment down to the Proving Grounds in order to take part in these classified tests.
Mr. SCHINE. And what was the timing?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe it was sometime in December of 1950.
Mr. SCHINE. This was shortly thereafter, or in the matter of weeks?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir. The first meeting was merely to make introductions and get the thing started.
Mr. SCHINE. And Mr. Ducore went with you again?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am not sure whether he was with us the first day or the first week or the first month, but I know he did go down. He did visit.
Mr. SCHINE. Who else was with you there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I had several people, Mr. Edward Storck was detailed as the man responsible at the place. Mr. Ralph Dunn participated, and Mr. Brendan—I believe that is right—B-r-e-n-d-a-n T-h-i-n-k-h-a-u-s. The ‘‘h’’ I am not sure of. Mr. Michael Meszaros, M-e-s-z-a-r-o-s, went down as a technician and returned very quickly.  He just went down to make an installation. There were several photograph people who went down; Duke—I don’t know his first name other than that—Southard, S-o-u-t-h-a-r-d, and Charles Fer-ris,
F-e-r-r-i-s. They were there a very short time. And then I had a number of enlisted personnel from the Signal Corps Development Detachment who were assigned to the job.
Do you want the names?
Mr. SCHINE. I imagine the first visit you made to Aberdeen was to line up some work you were going to do, and the second time you went down you brought the equipment with you to carry out this work?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. How long were you at Aberdeen when you went there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I personally was there several days. I don’t know whether it extended over a weekend or not. It was several days. If you wish, I can look my records up and give you the information.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you ever take or order taken a picture of an atomic cannon at Aberdeen?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I had a photographer requested to take pictures of our equipment there.
Mr. SCHINE. Who was the photographer?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Leo Fary, F-a-r-y.
Mr. SCHINE. Yes?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I did not give any specific instructions to take any pictures of any equipment other than ours.
Mr. SCHINE. The pictures were taken?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, they were.
Mr. COHN. Well, did you ask anyone to take a picture of an atomic cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I did not ask for any pictures other than our own, no, sir.
Mr. COHN. Do you know the instance to which I am referring?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe I do.
Mr. COHN. Tell us about it.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe Mr. Fary took some pictures of over-all equipment suits, which involved a picture in the background of the cannon, and specifically a 16-millimeter—I am not sure of that; I don’t know whether it was 35 or 16; I saw 16-millimeter prints—but I know a picture was taken of the atomic weapon being fired.  There were various scenes, background scenes, of other equipment, showing the shells, the loading facilities, the towers.
Mr. COHN. Had you asked that that film be delivered to you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I asked that a film be delivered. I didn’t know what was in the film when I asked to have it delivered.
Mr. SCHINE. You didn’t know what was in the film?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Not when I asked to have it delivered. I asked for the film Mr. Fary was asked to take, yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Why did you ask for the film?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It was our film that we sent a photographer down for, to take pictures of our equipment.
Mr. COHN. Was that picture supposed to include the workings of this atomic cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. That was a highly-classified thing, wasn’t it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It was secret, yes.
Mr. COHN. Now, did you know that the atomic cannon was down there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir, I did.
Mr. COHN. You had no idea that the pictures had been taken of it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wasn’t there when the pictures were taken.
Mr. COHN. Oh, I know you weren’t there. Didn’t you know that they were taking the pictures of this atomic cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I didn’t know until after I had seen the film.
Mr. COHN. What happened after you had seen the film?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. After we had seen the film——
Mr. SCHINE. Who is ‘‘we’’?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The people in the section who were working on the project. By the way, these films were sent through the clearance people at Aberdeen.
Mr. COHN. What finally happened to the film?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. These films were used in secret tours.
Mr. COHN. With the atomic cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, the picture of the cannon was shown.
Mr. COHN. Was there ever any objection made by G–2 to the use of the film with this picture of the cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. There was one objection, which was voiced to me, and we thereupon withdrew this film from the tours. We did not show it for some time, and then we got permission again to show the film.
Mr. SCHINE. You had several copies of the film both times?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I only know of one copy of the film. I am sorry. There was an original, which is really a negative, and a print.
Mr. SCHINE. And you were asked to turn over one copy to G–2. Is that not true?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wasn’t asked personally. We did give this film—I was asked to give this film to the branch. I don’t know what happened to the film.
Mr. SCHINE. You took charge of this film once it had been taken?  Who was responsible for it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This film was regarded as secret material.
Mr. JONES. Who is Harold Fary?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Leo Fary?
Mr. JONES. Who is Leo Fary?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He is a photographer who works in the Photographic Section of the Reproduction Branch.
Mr. COHN. Who gave him instructions as to what to take?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wrote a work order out requesting him to take pictures of the scope and our equipment.
Mr. COHN. Did you discuss it with him personally before he went, in addition to this written order?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe I did, yes.
Mr. COHN. Where is Mr. Fary now?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. To the best of my knowledge, he is still at Evans.
Mr. SCHINE. Now, who took charge of this film, once you had it?  Who showed it? Who showed the film?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I was responsible for showing the film.
Mr. SCHINE. You had the film for how long a period?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe we still have it.
Mr. SCHINE. You still have access?——
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I have it in the section.
Mr. SCHINE. You still have access to it if you need it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t any longer.
Mr. SCHINE. This film was shown where?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This was shown in demonstrations and tours to people visiting the laboratory who had secret clearance.
Mr. SCHINE. Was it shown very often? When was the last time it was shown?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I would say about two months ago.
Mr. SCHINE. Two months ago?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I can’t be sure of that. If you want that date, I believe I have records that will show that.
Mr. SCHINE. Now, did you do anything else while you were down at Aberdeen? I don’t believe you told us how long you stayed on there.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wasn’t sure how long I stayed there. I wasn’t sure the first time whether I was there more than a week or not.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Lovenstein, who gave you the orders to take pictures of this atomic cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No one. I didn’t give orders to take pictures of the atomic cannon.
Mr. JONES. You just gave orders to have pictures taken.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Of our equipment.
Mr. JONES. Of your equipment.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JONES. And evidently among your equipment, then, was this atomic cannon.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. JONES. How did they take the pictures of the atomic cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wasn’t the photographer.
Mr. JONES. I am actually amazed that they are showing some of our latest military equipment to tour groups.
Mr LOVENSTEIN. This film was not shown, to my knowledge, prior to the disclosure of pictures of the atomic weapon.
Mr. JONES. Now, who would attend these showings? Who would attend them? You said people who had clearance.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Secret clearance, yes, sir.
Mr. JONES. For example, who would that be?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. These would be people from Washington, VIP’s or officers, field grade officers, technical working groups, panel members. I was instructed, in disposition form, to show material, not specifically but up to and including secret. It was then up to my discretion to make the tour interesting, to make it informative, and to make it publicize the work of the laboratories and present the work of the laboratories.
Mr. JONES. Now, you say Leo Fary is still out there, to the best of your knowledge?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir, he is.
Mr. JONES. Does he do all the official photography?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Not all.
Mr. JONES. How long has he been there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He has been there as long as I remember. I couldn’t say.  Mr. JONES. How long would that be?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I would say for sure two, three, or four years.
Mr. COHN. When did you see him last?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I can’t be sure. A couple of months ago.
Mr. JONES. A couple of months ago. His developing place is right on the plant, the premises out there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I don’t believe they develop out there.  I believe they send the material to Astoria.
Mr. JONES. To Astoria?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Where in Astoria?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. That is to my knowledge. I don’t know for sure.
Mr. COHN. It is the Signal Corps Traffic Center.
Mr. JONES. And then the film was returned to you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Not to me, no, sir.
Mr. JONES. You asked for the film to be returned to you, though?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It was returned from Astoria to the Reproduction Branch. And then I signed for it.
Mr. JONES. You signed for the film?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir. I did at one time.
Mr. JONES. What was the purpose of signing for it? To acknowledge receipt for it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. To acknowledge receipt for it and have it transmitted to our section, the Radar Equipment Section.
Mr. JONES. And then did you have a showing made of that film for your own use?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I didn’t have another copy made. We showed that copy. This film was returned—here is some more information—it was returned to the Reproduction Section for editing. Various portions were taken out which did not pertain to the gun—to the radar; I am sorry. To our equipment. And we do have a copy now, which has been cut quite a bit in order to improve the showing quality.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Lovenstein, how do you explain the fact that a picture of an atomic cannon is taken in the course of taking pictures of your own equipment? I can’t seem to piece that together logically in my own mind.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Because of the connection with our equipment, with the weapon.
Mr. COHN. It certainly shouldn’t have been on the film. Isn’t that right?
Mr. JONES. You instructed Leo Fary, as I understood it, to go out and take these pictures?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Pictures of our equipment. And by ‘‘our’’ I mean Signal Corps equipment.
Mr. JONES. It turns out that after the film has been completed, amongst your equipment we find an atomic cannon or at least a picture of it, being taken on that same roll of film.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. JONES. How do you explain that?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The pictures were taken. I wasn’t there to point the camera.
Mr. JONES. I can’t understand that.
Mr. SCHINE. You must have discussed this with Fary.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. When the pictures came back, they were good viewing. They were good shots.
Mr. SCHINE. Regardless of the quality of the shots for a minute——
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am trying to say something of the value of the over-all program. Pictures of our equipment alone did not put over the idea of the project.
Mr. JONES. What was your equipment? What equipment, in particular, was photographed?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I can tell you generally. It was radar equipment.
Mr. JONES. Radar equipment in general?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes. I can tell you more specifically.
Mr. JONES. May I ask you, Mr. Lovenstein: Is it possible that someone else may have given Fary orders to take pictures of this atomic cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. If they did, I don’t know it. It is possible.
Mr. JONES. Then how do you explain that he took the picture of that cannon?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. How do I explain he took the picture?
Mr. JONES. Yes.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I can’t explain it.
Mr. JONES. Why did he take it, then?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wasn’t there when he took the picture.
Mr. COHN. What was his explanation to you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He didn’t explain it.
Mr. JONES. Did you ask him to?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Well, that is almost incredible. Here is a man who goes down to take pictures of your equipment. He comes back, and the film not only includes pictures of your equipment, but what at least has been denominated in official reports as one of the most sensitive and highest classified weapons, atomic weapons. G–2 gets excited about this. And you say you didn’t even ask your photographer how he happened to take those pictures?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wasn’t the first one to see those films.
Mr. COHN. Well, that you gave your man instructions to take pictures is one thing.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I did.
Mr. COHN. He comes back and, having gotten his original orders from you, he takes pictures not only of this highly secret atomic weapon, but of it in actual operation, as I understand.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe there were shots of it close up. I didn’t see those shots.
Mr. COHN. You didn’t even ask him, ‘‘Why in God’s name do you have this on the film? That isn’t supposed to be there.’’ Wasn’t that a perfectly logical topic of discussion between you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It should have been, yes, sir.  These films—I don’t pass on the clearance of these films or on their security. These films did not come directly from Aberdeen by
Mr. Fary to me. They passed through the clearance people at Aberdeen.  If the Aberdeen people saw fit to give these films to the Signal Corps engineering laboratories and have a secret classification assigned to them, I wasn’t to question their clearance. I wasn’t toquestion their work.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Lovenstein, quite a bit of trouble developed overthis incident, didn’t it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know. I know that the film was with-drawnfrom the tours.
Mr. JONES. The question is how it ever got out there in the firstplace.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. As I say, I wasn’t the one responsible for releasing these films to the Signal Corps.
Mr. SCHINE. You know that certain individuals got into trouble on account of this incident, don’t you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I don’t.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Getting back to Mr. Cohn’s question as to whether or not you questioned him or did not question him about taking the pictures, weren’t you at all concerned that you might catch hell from somebody for having the picture taken, since he was operating under your orders that day?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, because my superior saw those pic-tures.
Mr. COHN. Who were your superiors?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I have many superiors.
Mr. COHN. Mr. Ducore?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He was my immediate superior, yes.
Mr. COHN. And he thought it was all right?
Mr. SCHINE. You don’t remember the officer in Washington of the Signal Corps who authorized Mr. Ducore to go to Aberdeen and make this project?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I don’t.
Mr. SCHINE. Is it true that the project basically was to take photographs and show how we might intercept enemy aircraft or enemy attack by use of radar and guided missiles?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Is this going to be one of a series of questions eliminating all but one? If so, I can’t answer it.
Mr. SCHINE. This was going to be a demonstration film, wasn’t it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This was to be a record of our activity on the project and was to contain film strips of the data recorded. Mr. Fary was instructed to take pictures of the scope presentation. In radar work, you have a presentation on an oscilloscope, and he was to take pictures of that scope. And the pictures we took—I will give credit to Mr. Fary—were excellent. They were an excellent reproduction of our data.
Mr. SCHINE. Now, the thing I am concerned about is the method by which Mr. Ducore was sent to Washington and came back with the authorization to go to Aberdeen. You say that was a routine procedure, even though he was an assistant in one of the departments.  Wasn’t he responsible to somebody at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Who would normally get the orders from Washington?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. How does it happen that an assistant chief goes to Washington and comes back with an authorization in his hand to go out on something like this?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know if he went alone. I believe I stated that before, Mr. Ducore, however, is a very capable person, and in many cases he has led the section. He hasn’t been supervised technically.
Mr. COHN. Who is supposed to supervise it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Mr. Evers at the time.
Mr. COHN. Mr. James T. Evers?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. COHN. Was Mr. Coleman in that section, too?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Now, because of Mr. Ducore’s great capabilities would he have more authority than someone ordinarily holding the position of assistant?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir. May I clarify that?
Mr. COHN. Sure.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He was held in high esteem by all the people he worked with, who worked for him, who he worked for I believe his opinion technically was well valued.
Mr. COHN. Did you know Mr. Ducore personally, by the way?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I first became acquainted with Mr. Ducore early in 1948. I was assigned to the Radar Equipment Section late in 1947.
Mr. COHN. Have you known him socially since that time?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I have been to his house once. We played cards one evening.
Mr. COHN. And when did you last see Mr. Ducore?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Last night.
Mr. COHN. Pardon me?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Last night.
Mr. COHN. I see. That was socially?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir. I was at a lawyer’s office, and Mr. Ducore came into the same office.
Mr. COHN. Where was that?
Mr. JONES. What lawyer was it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This was Mr. Ira Katchen.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Discussing this appearance here?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir,
Mr. RAINVILLE. You thought you needed the advice of counsel?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I was asked if I would like to appear at Mr. Katchen’s office.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Mr. Katchen is your private attorney, not connected with the Signal Corps?
Mr. COHN. Let me see if I understand. By whom were you asked that?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. By Mr. Alan Gross, A-l-a-n S-t-e-r-l-i-n-g G-r-o-s-s.
Mr. COHN. He asked you if you would like to go to this lawyer’s office?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Mr. Gross indicated yesterday that Mr. Katchen had called him or gotten in touch with him in some way and said that there would be a meeting of those people who have been suspended or uncleared in his office at 3:30 yesterday afternoon, and asked if I would like to attend.
Mr. COHN. Now, I don’t understand that. You mean this lawyer is just organizing the——
Mr. RAINVILLE. Volunteers?
Mr. COHN. Is that the substance? Who was present at this meeting?
You were there, and Mr. Ducore was there, and Mr. Gross, I assume?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. COHN. Who else?
Mr. JONES. Jerome Corwin?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir. I don’t see anything wrong with telling who they were. I am not violating any confidence, I am sure. Mr. William Goldberg.
Mr. COHN. Mr. William P. Goldberg?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know his middle initial. Mr. Alfred Lapedo, L-a-p-e-d-o. I am not sure of the spelling of the last name.  A gentleman whom I had seen before but I didn’t know, Mr. Jerry, I believe, Rothstein.
Mr. COHN. Jerome Rothstein. Right?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I heard the name ‘‘Jerry.’’
Mr. COHN. Yes, sir?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am going around in a circle, I sat next. And then Willie Goldberg; Harold Ducore; it is either Brodie or Brophy, and I believe the first name is Ed. I am not sure. And Mr. Bob Martin.
Mr. JONES. That is Bernard Martin, isn’t it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Bob.
Mr. COHN. Bernard Martin?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I really don’t know.
Mr. JONES. That is all that were there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. That is all I recollect, yes, sir.
Mr. JONES. What is that lawyer’s name, again?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I have his card, if you would like to see it. He gave it to me last night. Ira J. Katchen, K-a-t-c-h-e-n.
Mr. SCHINE. Whose lawyer is he of this group?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know.
Mr. JONES. Now, how did this organization, this meeting come about?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. As I say, Mr. Gross was informed that Mr. Katchen was going to have the meeting.
Mr. JONES. And what was the purpose of Mr. Katchen’s holding the meeting? Who enlisted his services?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know.
Mr. JONES. What did they say at the meeting?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He reviewed whatever we knew about the situation.  To me it was a great help, very frankly, because all of the problems were discussed. And when you have a chance to talk to somebody, when you don’t know what is going on—if you have a chance to talk to anybody, it helps, believe me.
Mr. COHN. Let me make it very clear in the record at this point.  Obviously, you or anybody else called before the committee has an absolute right to counsel. As a matter of fact, when you are called, in executive session or in public session—when I say ‘‘you,’’ I mean anybody; I don’t know that you will be called—you have a right to have counsel with you to obtain his advice at any time. We are not concerned with any confidential communications between counsel and client in any way.  It does seem rather unusual, I mean, if a sort of mass meeting is being called.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The sound of ‘‘mass meeting’’ doesn’t sound good. It was a meeting, however.
Mr. JONES. There was no mention of any fee?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, there wasn’t.
Mr. JONES. In other words, Mr. Katchen just called you all together because you had one thing to discuss and you wished to discuss it in common at that time?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JONES. What other matters were discussed, in terms of future procedure?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He told me if I had any problems I should get in touch with him. There was another lawyer who appeared, a Mr.—I believe it was Harry Green.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Harry Green?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am not sure of the first name.  There were two Greens mentioned. He was one of them. Actually he was Mr. Ducore’s lawyer.
Mr. JONES. And an associate of Katchen’s?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. They were on speaking terms. They knew one another.
Mr. JONES. I mean, in the same law firm?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t think so.
Mr. JONES. So, you were saying about discussing the problems, and so forth——
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes. After the meeting broke up—well, the rest of the meeting had to do with what problems each of us had, what our experiences had been in the past, what we thought this hearing was going to consist of, what might have brought it about, a general airing of all the complaints and all the feelings of the people concerned.  At the conclusion of the meeting, Mr. Green asked me to stay, since I was the only one who was in the group yesterday who was going to appear today. Mr. Green asked me to give my background to him, any questions I had. I told him I think exactly what I have told you, except for the classified material. I never thought that this Aberdeen question would come up. I discussed my background, my family connections, the people I knew, anything that I thought might come up today.
Mr. COHN. What did you say you thought might come up today?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The strike at Fairchild. This is something I am ashamed of. I am sorry it ever happened. The fact that I once had a subscription to Consumer Reports.
Mr. COHN. How about that?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t have it. I didn’t have it as soon as the subscription ran out, when I found it was on the subversive list or on a list published by the attorney general.
Mr. COHN. You had that subscription for more than a year didn’t you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I believe I renewed it once. I am not sure.
Mr. COHN. What were the years?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know. ’46 or ’47, probably. It was way back.
Mr. COHN. Who asked you to subscribe to Consumer Reports?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am not sure whether I had a subscription to it before I came with the laboratories or not. You probably have the records on that. I believe I did. I am not sure.
Mr. JONES. Who asked you to subscribe to it?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. While I was at the laboratory a group subscription was taken up. I remember two people. I am not sure which one I actually gave my subscriptions to. There was Mr. Ed Storck, the man I mentioned before, S-t-o-r-c-k. I don’t know if he got the subscription up. It was a group plan. There was a cheaper rate.
Mr. JONES. Who is Ed Storck?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He is a very capable person, who works for me.
Mr. JONES. You say he works for you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He worked for me.
Mr. COHN. You say he worked for you?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He worked for me.
Mr. COHN. Where were the other persons?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Mr. Arthur T. Hood, H-o-o-d, who at that time I had practically nothing to do with. He was in another section at the time. But I remember he did come around.
Mr. JONES. What does he do today?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He is in the Mechanical Engineering Section. I have had many contacts with him recently.
Mr. JONES. What have been your relations?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He is the mechanical engineer assigned to the projects I am responsible for.
Mr. COHN. Now, are there any other matters which you want to call to our attention?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. You mean things that I feel are against me?
Mr. RAINVILLE. Well, we are not trying you, here, you know.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Well, I had a guilty conscience. I do have a curious conscience, and it keeps me awake at nights. I don’t know why my clearance was removed. I wish, indeed I do, that I were suspended and I were given a statement of charges. At least then I would know what I am supposed to be accused of. But this way I don’t know what the charge are. So all these possibilities keep going through my mind.
Mr. JONES. What are these other possibilities?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Consumer Reports, the strike——
Mr. JONES. That is the strike at Fairchild?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir—my association with Ducore, the fact that an FBI agent came around maybe six months ago and asked me if I knew Aaron Coleman. He asked me if I knew Mr. Yamins.  He asked me if I knew that the strike at the Fairchild Corporation was sponsored by a Communist organization. I told him that I didn’t, and that was the first knowledge I had of it. And believe me, that made me very much ashamed that I had been a part of it.
Mr. JONES. And those are all the possibilities?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, there are two others.
Mr. SCHINE. Will you state them, please?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. As a project engineer in the Radar Equipment Section, I was responsible for getting work out. I was a little too conscientious, and I reprimanded someone one day—as a matter of fact, a group of people—for extending their coffee break. A complaint was made, and an investigation was carried on, as far as I knew, within the section. People came to me saying that I was being investigated, and they told me why I was being investigated.  As soon as I found out, I went into Mr. Evers’ office, and I told
him I thought I believed there was dissension in the section, and if he believed it necessary or if he believed it was for the benefit of the section I would ask to be transferred from the section, or I requested that the person I thought was responsible for the dissension should be removed from my supervision. This happened. The man was removed.
Mr. COHN. Who was that man?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Mr. Albert Strom, S-t-r-o-m.
Mr. COHN. Now, what else?
Mr. JONES. The last possibility?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The last possibility was Mr. Marion Woodruff, W-o-o-d-r-u-f-f.
Mr. JONES. First name?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Marion, M-a-r-i-o-n. Marion W. Woodruff, I will have to give a history here. Sometime around 1949—I am not sure of the dates; I am not even sure of the year, but this can be verified—one of the men in the section, Mr. Daniel Goldenberg, a mathematician, was about to get married. A bachelor dinner was planned for him as a surprise at the Tides, T-i-d-e-s, Restaurant in Belmar, New Jersey. Many of the men in the section went to this dinner. It was a cooperative affair. Each one chipped in.  When I arrived at the Tides, a group of people were already there. Among the group were several colored people. And someone told me that they had been refused service at the bar, and as I got
the story the bartender said that they wouldn’t serve these colored people at the bar but they would serve them in the dining room.  Oh, prior to this, Mr. Norwood had said that if the colored people weren’t served, then none of us would be served.  Well, we were all served in the restaurant. The next day, Mr. Norwood came around to me and asked me if I would like to sign a letter which he had written. This letter was, I believe, to one of the senators or congressmen—I believe it was Mr. Auchincloss—relating the events at the restaurant, and in essence saying that the management of the Tides had showed discrimination, and so on.  The event, as written by Mr. Norwood, was true, I signed the letter.
Everyone at the meeting signed the letter except Mr. Woodruff.  Shortly thereafter, Mr. Evers called me into his office and asked me if I had signed the letter. I said I had. He reprimanded me, not for signing the letter, but for signing the letter on government property. I acknowledged the fact that this was an error. I shouldn’t have done that. The facts of the letter were true.  Very shortly after that, I became convinced that Mr. Woodruff was the instigator of an investigation which led to this reprimand.  Nothing happened.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Were you the only one reprimanded?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir. I don’t have evidence that everyone was. I know I was.
Mr. RAINVILLE. You know some of the others were, and you assume they all were?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. That is a fair statement, yes.
Mr. JONES. How well do you know Bob Martin?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I saw Mr. Bob Martin last night, and to the best of my recollection on three previous occasions. I was sitting outside this morning, realizing that I would be asked this, and I thought back, when I met him and where I saw him. The first occasion I saw him, and I believe I was introduced, was at Evelyn’s, an eating place in Belmont. I didn’t sit at the same table with him.  I don’t know if I even shook his hand. It was just an acknowledgment that I was introduced. The next time I saw him, I was at Watson Laboratories visiting someone else, and I was walking down the hall, and I saw him, and I nodded an acquaintance.  I recognized his face, as having seen him before.  Another time was at another restaurant. I was eating with someone else, and he was at another table. I said, ‘‘Hello,’’ just a nodding ‘‘hello,’’ and that was all. Except at that time I remember both parties went out to the street at the same time, and he had just bought either a Kieser or a Frazer, and there were some comments as to the quality of the car. I know that Mr. Martin has been suspended.  I learned this in the last few days, when everybody has been talking about these things. I know nothing else about him, other than that he was suspended. He was in isolation with Mr. Coleman.
Mr. JONES. Who introduced you to him?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know who actually made the introduction.  I was eating at that time, I believe, with Mr. Howard Moss, M-o-s-s, who had changed his name, I believe it was Moshensky, M-o-s-h-e-n-s-k-y, and he worked at Monmouth.
Mr. JONES. He is in the agency?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, he is now up at Procurement Maintenance Engineering at Watson.
Mr. COHN. Do you know a man named Ullmann?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Who?
Mr. COHN. Ullmann.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. What was the first name?
Mr. COHN. I am not giving you one.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. My AP teacher in elementary school was Ullmann.
Mr. COHN. No, did you ever meet a man named Ullmann in the company of Martin, that you recall?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, I don’t.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Lovenstein, you know Ducore fairly well?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He is my boss.
Mr. SCHINE. You know him socially, too?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. To the extent of going to his home once and being at the same beach party.
Mr. SCHINE. Now, who was at his home when you visited his home?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. He was alone, and his two children at that time—now he has three. He was alone, and I believe Mr. Harold Tate and I were there, and the fourth at bridge I am not sure of.  It could have been Mr. Arthur Randals. It might have been Mr. Robert Acker, A-c-k-e-r. These are people I have played bridge with.
Mr. SCHINE. These are close friends of his?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. From work. I don’t know how close they are outside of work. They are close associates at work, yes.
Mr. JONES. I don’t know whether you answered this question or not. Did you say you know Harold Coleman?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I know an Aaron Coleman.
Mr. JONES. Aaron Coleman?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JONES. Did you ask him about that, Roy?
Mr. COHN. Not in any detail. How well do you know him?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I know he was the assistant chief of the systems section of the Radar Branch. I know that he has been suspended.  I didn’t know exactly when or what for.
Mr. COHN. Was he at this meeting last night?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Last night? No, sir. I believe—I know—that someone said he was in New York avoiding newspaper people. But after reading the newspapers, I don’t know if he avoided them.  How well did I know him? I can elaborate a little more. If I passed him in the hall, I would recognize him, and I don’t think he would recognize me. I know he shared a house with Mr. Ducore.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir. If this is that Julius Rosenberg I think it is, no, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No. sir; I knew a Sobel, S-o-b-e-l. I believe I played football with him. But not a Sobell.
Mr. RAINVILLE. In attending this meeting last night, and having been invited by an attorney, and there being two or three attorneys there——
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Two, sir. Excuse me. There were three. I didn’t get the third man’s name. But he was associated with Mr. Katchen.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I thought you said there was a Harry Green.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. And Katchen. I am not sure it was Harry Green. One Green was mentioned.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Wasn’t Gross the attorney?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir. Alan Sterling Gross.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Then a couple of attorneys were there. Don’t you wonder who is paying the bill?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I know who is paying the bill.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Oh, I thought you said you didn’t know about that.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I know who is.
Mr. COHN. Who is?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The B’nai B’rith Society, I know. This has been indicated.
Mr. JONES. The B’nai B’rith?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. The Anti-Defamation Society, you think?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I heard the society mentioned. I don’t think they have been called in.
Mr. COHN. Has any specific name been mentioned in connection with B’nai B’rith?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir. If you mention them, maybe I can give a recollection. I remember hearing names.
Mr. RAINVILLE. So you knew that before you went? Or did you find that out when you got to the meeting?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I heard it mentioned before.
Mr. COHN. Through whom was this arranged? Which one of the people there?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Mr. Gross, as far as I know. He was the one who asked me, if I would like to go to this meeting.
Mr. COHN. Did the B’nai B’rith make the arrangements through him?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. The thought that runs through my mind is that maybe some of these people are more guilty than others.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. In my mind, too.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Wouldn’t you have some reluctance to associate yourself as a group with them? Would it have been better for you to see the attorney alone and go over all this?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I didn’t discuss my personal case. I discussed nothing of my background, nothing of anyone else’s background, in the presence of anyone but the two lawyers.
Mr. SCHINE. One thing that interests me, which you may be able to help us on: In listening to the discussions carried on by the others as to what problems they were going to face before this committee, what appeared to you to be the most outstanding?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I was going to volunteer that if you didn’t ask me: A dissatisfaction with the method of investigation and the efficiency of the investigation. May I elaborate?
Mr. SCHINE. Sure.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am the wrong person to get information on this from. All I can do is relate what I have heard in the last six or seven days, since last Tuesday. Prior to last Tuesday, believe it or not, I was as naive——
Mr. JONES. Who would be a good person to get this information from?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Mr. Alan Gross.
Mr. COHN. We have a date with him tomorrow morning.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. By the way, when he wasn’t invited among the first ones, he was going to volunteer, or the suggestion had come out that he was going to volunteer, to appear.
There are cases I have learned about in the last few days, of suspensions lasting two to two and a half years, without any action.  I don’t know how long my case is going to go. You probably know that I have been uncleared. I don’t know for what reason. I don’t know for how long it is going to be. It is not a nice situation, and I assure you the rest of the people, as far as the outward appearances are concerned, don’t like it at all. They realize this is an important investigation. They realize a lot of good can come of it.  They realize a lot of good should come of it. But they are afraid, too.
Mr. RAINVILLE. May I interrupt right there to say: By that you mean there are a lot of people who feel that there are things that need to be looked into and cleared up?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. JONES. For example?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The security system at Monmouth.
Mr. JONES. In particular?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The method of investigation, the method of carrying on investigations, the method of taking action, and the method of clearing people.
Mr. JONES. Who would be the best man to talk to?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I think Mr. Gross can give you excellent leads.  I assure you if I can take up some of your time and introduce you to some other people, I don’t know the facts, but if I can give you the rest of the people’s names, I am sure you are going to find that they are cooperative and they want to clear this up.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Lovenstein, I don’t know whether you know this, but nothing you say here will go outside this room. It is all in executive session.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I have nothing to be ashamed of.
Mr. JONES. It is just to unload your heart, more or less and it will help us immensely in proceeding.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Maybe there is one thing that can be cleared. The FBI man did not represent this committee.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know who he represented.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Your being suspended or removed from the clearance list is not an action of this committee. As far as we are concerned, all of that is from another source. And what we are looking into is the over-all problem of both historical things that have been discussed and some things that have come before the committee, and we, too, would like to know just what it is that they are acting under. Maybe they have information we don’t have.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am sure they do.
Mr. COHN. I want to ask you this: What is the point of B’nai B’rith having anything to do with this?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. There is an assumption that there is an anti-Semitic movement.
Mr. COHN. Well, that is an outrageous assumption. I am a member and an officer of B’nai B’rith.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I was under the same naive impression until I became aware of some facts. Excuse me for saying that.
Mr. COHN. Sure. Who made the suggestion that there is an anti-Semitic movement?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The rest of the people who have been suspended or uncleared. I didn’t originate it. I have heard it in the group.
Mr. JONES. This was brought out at the meeting last night?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This was verified at the meeting.
Mr. JONES. Who discussed, who labored on, that point last night?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Nobody labored on it. They discussed it. Mr. Katchen brought up some facts. In the current investigation, to the best of our knowledge—I say ‘‘our’’; this is the meeting—there were fifteen people on the carpet, either suspended or uncleared. Of the fifteen, fourteen are Jewish. The fifteenth married a Jewess.
Mr. JONES. Who is the fifteenth?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Dr. Daniels. You have an appointment with him, I am sure.
Mr. COHN. This is all news to me. I don’t know the religion of these people, and I don’t care. It doesn’t matter whether out of 530 people there are 530 Jews or Catholics or Protestants.
Mr. JONES. Will you proceed now with what you were about to discuss?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. These were the facts I got last night. I didn’t investigate them. These are quotes.  Two years ago, there was supposed to be an investigation. I didn’t know of the extent of it. I knew about a Mr. Barry Bernstein.  I knew about a Mr. Bill Jones. I didn’t realize eighteen people at the time had been involved. Eighteen were suspended. Two did not appeal at all and were just assumed to be either Communists or subversives.
Mr. JONES. Who were they?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I don’t know. Of the remaining sixteen, fourteen were Jewish, and two were colored.  I don’t know the facts. I am telling you exactly what I heard last night.
Mr. JONES. That is amazing.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This was from Mr. Katchen. I don’t think I am violating a confidence there, either.
Mr. RAINVILLE. That is another investigation this committee had nothing to do with.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I realize that. This is an opportunity to clear up a lot of this. If these thoughts are in people’s minds—they weren’t in mine until last night, but believe me, they stayed with me—if they are in people’s minds at the fort, and they are disturbing people, clear them up. Either prove it, or get them off the hook, or get the people out who are causing this dissension.  I don’t know what your investigating committee is after. I have an idea. I have an idea that it is to find loose security in the government.  I am not going to say whether there is loose security or whether there is too much security. Many times there is too much in the wrong places and not enough in the right places. But there is an opportunity to make an investigation and to find out where the trouble is, not to make trouble but to clear up the trouble. And believe me, you have got plenty of opportunity to do it.
Mr. COHN. Now, where is this anti-Semitic plot supposed to stem from? The suspensions—what is the reasoning behind that? I don’t understand that.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Who the actual people are who are responsible?
Mr. COHN. Yes.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The only people responsible for suspensions at Fort Monmouth are the people in security.  Now, who they get their directives from, or how they act or react
to recommendations, or what actions they initiate or what stories they believe, what credence they give to rumors, I don’t know.
Mr. JONES. Who is the chairman of the security board at Monmouth?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. It isn’t the chairman. There is a civilian and his military counterpart. The civilian is Mr. Andrew Reid, R-e-i-d.  I would rather not give the background. I know you people can investigate that. I would rather not, because it came from one side, and it came from a biased side. I didn’t make the investigation.
Mr. JONES. Had that something to do with anti-Semitism?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Just offhand, do you know what the percentage of employees at Evans, the percentage of Jewish employees, would be? Is it predominantly Jewish?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir. I won’t give you figures. That is classified.  But I can give you a percentage. I would say 25 percent of the engineers. I don’t know about the rest, but of the engineers 25 percent.  And it is a large percentage that are Jewish.
Mr. JONES. Frankly, I am more interested in your ideas on the security aspects that you are critical of rather than the anti-Semitism.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I am not highly critical.
Mr. JONES. Or ‘‘critical’’?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. ‘‘Afraid of.’’
Mr. JONES. I wish you would elaborate on that a little bit, any specific examples you have.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. People are now afraid to read secret informa-tion.
Mr. JONES. Since the new security order went into effect three months ago. Is that correct?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes, sir. I was still in the laboratory up until last Tuesday at 4:30. After that time I don’t know. But approaching that time, people were reluctant—project engineers were reluctant—I was reluctant—to withdraw secret information and withdraw confidential information; not because we wouldn’t gain information from it that we could use in our projects, because of the mess and the trouble of getting this information, the rigmarole, the forms you had to sign, the cautions.
Mr. JONES. The red tape?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. The red tape. It became so unbearable that people just didn’t want to do their jobs at 100 percent efficiency because of the red tape. And this isn’t necessary. It isn’t. For an engineer to work effectively, he must be able to get a background in the subject, and to get a background in classified subjects, he must feel free to consult any information on the subject. Otherwise, the whole purpose of the laboratory is defeated.
Mr. SCHINE. And where did you feel the security was too lax?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Visitors.
Mr. SCHINE. What is the procedure for visitors?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Well, when a visitor comes to the laboratory, his clearance is checked. This procedure involved either calling Fort Monmouth or consulting the record files at Evans. If a man is cleared, he gets a badge, which says—I am not sure of the new badges; I haven’t seen too many of them, but it usually says either ‘‘Escort required’’ or ‘‘unclassified’’—I am not sure of this.  No, this I am sure of. The badges do not state the security clearance.  It just says ‘‘Visitor escort required.’’ Or ‘‘Visitor escort not
required.’’  We were told when we get one of these visitors in the section the only way of making sure of what his classification clearance is is to call the security office. This I have done, and the girl over the phone will give the clearance out. The clearance she gives out does not include the projects he has been cleared for. It gives a blanket clearance.  Assumedly, the man is directed to appear for only one project, and you are to speak to him on only one project.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, the clearance, first of all, is not specific enough; secondly, even at the outset, it may be done haphazardly, because they have limited files by which they can check the individual?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. That is right, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Thank you very much, sir.  Incidentally, on the question of anti-Semitism, if somebody there is anti-Semitic, according to your percentage figures, I would say
he was fighting a losing battle. That 25 percent Jewish is rather a high percentage.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Not at the current rate, because the current rate of suspensions is practically 99 percent Jewish. If you keep going at 99 percent, ultimately you get almost that whole 25 percent.
Mr. SCHINE. Of course, religion doesn’t exclude the possibility of being involved in criminal activity or provide a shield which he can hide behind.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Right, sir.
Mr. JONES. Where do you believe the fountainhead of this anti-Semitism stems from out there at Monmouth?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I wouldn’t say.
Mr. JONES. You know, but you won’t say?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir, I don’t know. I can guess.
Mr. JONES. You have reason, however, to believe that it may center in the security and loyalty board. Is that correct?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. This has affected a number of people.
Mr. JONES. Have you any ideas that you would want to put in the record?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. No, sir. This is only a guess. Why should a guess become a matter of record. I have no proof. The other statements I gave you were statements other people made.
Mr. CARR. You said that there were persons you could give us who would be able to clear this up. I don’t think you gave us their names.
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. I gave one. Mr. Gross. He should surely give you many more. I believe Dr. Daniels knows of other cases.
Mr. CARR. Gross and Daniels?
Mr. LOVENSTEIN. Yes. I may give you my connection with Gross.  You will probably be interested in that. He was my first boss, when I first came to the laboratories. I worked for him maybe a matter of months, but I have known him ever since in the laboratories.
Mr. SCHINE. Thank you very much, sir.
Mr. JONES. I think you have been very helpful, Mr. Lovenstein.

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