EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS The Army-McCarthy 1953-1954 Communist Witch Hunt FRIDAY, OCTOBER 9, 1953 New York, N.Y.

Click on photo for larger image October 20, 1953 In the Camp Evans Administration building (9001), the former Marconi Wireless Station Staff Hotel. (The building to the right)--->

    Over 47 persons from Camp Evans (aka Evans Signal Laboratory) testified at the Army Signal Corps Subversion and Espionage hearings.

Volume 3: begins on Paper page 2201 - adobe page 401.

STATEMENT OF ALAN STERLING GROSS

Mr. SCHINE. Will you state your name for the record, please?
Mr. GROSS. My name is Alan Sterling Gross.
Mr. SCHINE. Will you spell that?
Mr. GROSS. A-l-a-n S-t-e-r-l-i-n-g G-r-o-s-s.
Mr. SCHINE. And your present occupation, Mr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS. I am an engineer employed as assistant chief of the Electro Magnetic Wave Propagation Section at Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. SCHINE. And your duties as an engineer in this section?
Mr. GROSS. Well, right now I am working on unclassified projects.
Mr. SCHINE. Yes. How long have you been working solely on unclassified projects?
Mr. GROSS. Since December 19, 1952.
Mr. SCHINE. And until that time you had complete access to classified material?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. How long were you employed in this position?
Mr. GROSS. I have been at the laboratory since 1941 about September 15,  I think.  But for a little over three years, from ’43 to ’46,
I was in the United States Navy as a radar officer.
Mr. SCHINE. And when you first went to Fort Monmouth, you were still in the radar work?
Mr. GROSS. No, actually I have never been in what is known as the radar branch except for a period of two or three months in 1946.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, from 1941 to ’43, you worked at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. GROSS. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. What were your duties at that time?
Mr. GROSS. Well, at that time I was an engineer in the sound and light section.
Mr. SCHINE. Then you went to the United States Navy, and from 1943 to 1946 you served as a radar technician?
Mr. GROSS. Yes. I was technical officer and then assistant officer in charge of ground control approach blind landing. It is instrument landing systems.
Mr. SCHINE. And then you returned, immediately upon your discharge from the navy, to Fort Monmouth?
Mr. GROSS. There was a period of maybe thirty days between the time I got out of the navy and the time I returned.
Mr. SCHINE. And at that time you took the present——
Mr. GROSS. No, at that time I came back to work for Mr. Stodola, in—I can’t think of the name of the section. It was at that time I think known as the General Engineering Branch.
And that section, due to the consolidation after the war, was broken up, and several groups went to different parts of the agency.  For a period of about maybe two or three months, as I remember, I went to radar branch, and then from that back into this other branch, back to general engineering, which ultimately got its name changed to applied physics.  And I have been in the applied physics branch ever since but not always in the same section.
Mr. SCHINE. Now, Mr. Gross, would you tell us where you got your education, and when?
Mr. GROSS. I was educated at Townsend Harris High School in New York City, and went from there to City College. I was in City College from January 1937 to June of 1941, taking an electrical engineering course.  I graduated with a Bachelor of Electrical Engineering Degree.
Mr. SCHINE. Then, of course, you immediately went to Fort Monmouth.
Mr. GROSS. At the end of that summer, I did.
Mr. SCHINE. When you took a position with Fort Monmouth, did you give certain references in conjunction with your application for the position?
Mr. GROSS. Yes, I did.
Mr. SCHINE. Can you remember the names of those references?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t think so.  I am sure I gave an old friend of the family that knew me for years. I think his name was Ben Rader. That was one. He worked somewhere near New York City.  I saw him last summer once.  But I don’t think I could remember the others.  I think I gave the family doctor.  I think he is since dead.
Mr. SCHINE. Now, would you tell us why on December 19 you shifted from classified to nonclassified work?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. Nobody ever told me. On a Wednesday, or I think about two days before, I was quizzed by the FBI for an hour and a half, which was not normal, but nothing that I would get annoyed about.  The FBI’s questions on that day seemed to indicate—it was a matter of what enemies I had and because of my relatively young age had I supplanted anybody in the line of command that would have any hard feelings against me?  I happened to graduate from college at the age of nineteen, and I was pretty young to hold the position I am holding. I am thirty-two now.  And he spent most of the time quizzing me on that phase and intimated that there was some question about some equipment which I had never known, never heard of and never worked on.
Mr. SCHINE. Some equipment?
Mr. GROSS. Right.  The questions took a line that—I can’t tell you what equipment.  I think that would come under security. But he asked me whether I had done anything with the plans for this equipment.  I said I had never seen the equipment; never worked with it; never had access to it. And he went back to his line did I know who could have hard feelings against me because there were probably three-quarters of the section that were older than I am in years.
Mr. SCHINE. Had you ever been reprimanded prior to this for any activities on the part of your superior officers?
Mr. GROSS. No, I never had a security violation, never had any reprimand of any type.
Mr. SCHINE. Can you think of any organization to which you might have belonged, about which there would be a question in the minds of the intelligence agencies?
Mr. GROSS. I am a member of the Naval Reserve now.  I belonged at one time to the American Legion and the VFW.  I don’t join things. That is just about that.
Mr. CARR. You are a member of the American Legion now,  aren’t you?
Mr. GROSS. Well, they haven’t collected my dues just recently. I was with the Belmar Post, and since I moved to Lakewood, it is hard to get back up there with a wife and family, so I am building a house and what not, and just haven’t kept up with it.
Mr. SCHINE. You have never belonged to any organization termed as subversive by the proper authorities?
Mr. GROSS. No, sir; I never have.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you, or have you ever known Julius or Ethel Rosenberg?
Mr. GROSS. No, sir; I haven’t. The FBI asked me those same questions.
Mr. SCHINE. Morton Sobol?
Mr. GROSS. No, I don’t think so.  He was, as I have told or have read, an engineer at City College.  But I never remember knowing him.  And as far as I can see, I mean from the years that he went and I went, a freshman would not associate with the junior or senior classes.
Mr. SCHINE. David Greenglass?
Mr. GROSS. No, sir; that I am sure of.
Mr. SCHINE. Clarence Hiskey?
Mr. GROSS. No, sir; definitely not.
Mr. SCHINE. Have you ever been arrested for any criminal viola-tion?
Mr. GROSS. No, sir; I never have.
Mr. SCHINE. What is your reaction to this whole situation?
Mr. GROSS. You mean my present state?
Mr. SCHINE. Yes.
Mr. GROSS. I was very much amazed, and I think everybody who knew me was. I am still amazed, because I have a letter this summer from the Research and Development Board, of which I was a deputy member, inviting me to a classified symposium on the West Coast, and stating therein that my clearance was verified by the Department of Defense.  I took that letter, and I mailed it with a letter of my own to Representative Auchincloss, and he inquired as far as he could, and he did not get any logical answer, and he was very much put out about it.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know Mr. Ducore?
Mr. GROSS. Yes. And those two or three months I was in the radar branch, he was in the same section.
Mr. SCHINE. And you know Mr. Bernard Martin, known as Bob Martin, I think?
Mr. GROSS. Well, I know him. I never worked with him, or anything.  I just know people who know him, and I would recognize him around when I saw him.
Mr. SCHINE. What does Bob Martin do?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know.  I don’t think in the last four years I have run into him except once. I don’t know where he works, or what.
Mr. SCHINE. What does Mr. Ducore do?
Mr. GROSS. I think he is either assistant section chief or section chief in the radar branch.
Mr. SCHINE. Does he handle classified material?
Mr. GROSS. I assumed he did. I did not know any differently.
Mr. SCHINE. Are you very closely associated with him?
Mr. GROSS. No contacts outside at all.
Mr. SCHINE. What about Mr. Coleman? Do you know him?
Mr. GROSS. Just by name. I never met him outside, and possibly maybe a meeting in the laboratory. Nothing else.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you ever know a Mr. Ullmann?
Mr. GROSS. No, I don’t think so, but I think he lived in the same rooming house I did when I was a bachelor.
Mr. SCHINE. What was his first name?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. But I used to live in Red Bank in a rooming house which maybe held, oh, thirty or forty single people, of which there were schoolteachers of the local high school or engineers at the fort.
Mr. CARR. What is the address of that?
Mr. GROSS. It is the Hudson House, about 130 Hudson Avenue, Red Bank.
Mr. CARR. When did you live there?
Mr. GROSS. I lived there before I went in service, and I think from 1942, and then I lived there in ’46, when I came back from the navy, oh, until a couple of months before I got married, in ’49.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you know that his name was William Ullmann?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t think so. We would come in and we would find the mail downstairs, everybody’s.
Mr. CARR. Was his name Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. CARR. Do you know a Marcel Ullmann?
Mr. GROSS. No, not by that name.
Mr. CARR. What name do you know?
Mr. GROSS. I just remember the last name. If you asked me the first name, I couldn’t tell you at all.
Mr. CARR. He lived at this bachelor’s rooming place.
Mr. GROSS. I think he did. I know an Ullmann lived on one of the floors of that apartment building.
Mr. SCHINE. Did anyone else who was associated with you or works at Fort Monmouth live at that house?
Mr. GROSS. Oh, yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you name the names, please?
Mr. GROSS. There is a man who works there right now, Joseph Sharney, S-h-a-r-n-e-y. He works in my same section right now.  There was a Don Goodman. He left before the war. I can see some people’s faces, and can’t remember their names.
Mr. CARR. This is when you were a bachelor?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. CARR. And this was a bachelor home where several bachelors lived?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. CARR. Didn’t Jerome Corwin live there?
Mr. GROSS. No, not there, no.
Mr. CARR. Not at this place?
Mr. GROSS. No, he did not.
Mr. CARR. How about a fellow named Okum? Do you recall him?  Jack Okum?
Mr. GROSS. The name strikes a familiar chord, but I don’t re-member.
Mr. CARR. How about Bernard Martin, known as Bob Martin?
Mr. GROSS. No, definitely he did not live there. I can think of another name. Saul Groll.
Mr. CARR. Did Jerome Corwin live there at that time?
Mr. GROSS. No, definitely not.
Mr. CARR. When did you get married? What year?
Mr. GROSS. In June of 1949.
Mr. CARR. And what was your wife’s name?
Mr. GROSS. Selma Lerner. That is L-e-r-n-e-r. She was a secretary in the propagation section.
Mr. CARR. At Fort Monmouth?
Mr. GROSS. At Fort Monmouth.
Mr. CARR. Where was her home originally? New York?
Mr. GROSS. She had lived about ten or twelve years in Lakewood, and originally was born in Brooklyn.
Mr. CARR. Now, you say that you have never been a member of the Communist party?
Mr. GROSS. No, I never have.
Mr. CARR. Or of any organization——
Mr. GROSS. I have never belonged to any organization connected with them in any way.
Mr. CARR. How about your wife?
Mr. GROSS. No, she has not. She held top secret clearance for a long time, and she would not have gotten that if they could find anything.
Mr. CARR. With the Evans Lab?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. CARR. How about any other member of your family?
Mr. GROSS. No, definitely not. I am positive of that.
Mr. CARR. Have you ever affiliated yourself with the American Labor party?
Mr. GROSS. Never.
Mr. CARR. How about your wife?
Mr. GROSS. Never.
Mr. CARR. Were you members of the United Federal Workers?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. CARR. You never were?
Mr. GROSS. Never were.
Mr. CARR. Was your clearance for secret lifted, or does it still remain in effect?
Mr. GROSS. It still remains in effect. It was lifted in December 1952.
Mr. CARR. Now were you notified at that time why it was lifted?
Mr. GROSS. No, I was not.
Mr. CARR. And you are still trying to find out why it was lifted?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. CARR. Do you know Aaron Coleman?
Mr. GROSS. By name. I never worked with him or had any social contacts with him.
Mr. CARR. How about Harold Ducore?
Mr. GROSS. I know him. I think I was in his section. I think he was in the same section in 1946, when I came back from service, maybe for a period of two or three months. Either ’46 or ’47.
But I did not stay there long.
Mr. CARR. You had no social contact with him?
Mr. GROSS. No, I don’t have any outside contact with him at all.
Mr. CARR. Have you ever had social contact or contact at work with Bernard Martin?
Mr. GROSS. No, I have not.
Mr. CARR. Do you know him at all?
Mr. GROSS. I know him by name. I know he works at the laboratory.  I may have seen him once or twice around. But I don’t even know where he works or what section.
Mr. CARR. Do you know Mr. Schenwetter?
Mr. GROSS. No, the name is not at all familiar.
Mr. CARR. Have you had any contact with Hymn Yamins?
Mr. GROSS. Well, in some of the work we have had contacts with MIT, and he is the liaison.  We have worked through him.  But only on a purely business basis.
Mr. CARR. Your only contacts have been in connection with your work?
Mr. GROSS. That is right.
Mr. CARR. And at your work?
Mr. GROSS. At my work. I never met him outside.
Mr. CARR. And you say you don’t know this Jack Okum at all?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t think so.
Mr. CARR. You can’t recall the name?
Mr. GROSS. I can’t recall the name.
Mr. CARR. Do you know a man named Irving Kaplan?
Mr. GROSS. No. There is no Kaplan that I know of.
Mr. CARR. Are any of your relatives connected in any way with the Communist party, or any of its alleged fronts?
Mr. GROSS. No, definitely not.
Mr. CARR. How about your wife’s relatives?
Mr. GROSS. No, definitely not. My wife’s brother also works at the laboratories, and I have met practically all the family and I am positive that none of them have any connection.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know any members of the Communist party?
Mr. GROSS. No, I don’t think so.
Mr. SCHINE. Have you known any?
Mr. GROSS. I could amplify one statement, I think. At this same rooming house, there lived a Morris Klein.
Mr. SCHINE. Will you spell his name?
Mr. GROSS. I think it is K-l-e-i-n. I am not sure. His first name was Morris. I knew he lived there, and I spoke to him, and since I left it I understand he has been removed and discharged for some Communist connection. But I did not know——
Mr. SCHINE. Where was he working at the time?
Mr. GROSS. He was working at Coles Laboratory, not any connection with us at all. He just lived at the same floor there.
Mr. SCHINE. When was he suspended, approximately?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know, 1950, I would guess at.
Mr. SCHINE. Have you heard the reasons why he was suspended?
Mr. GROSS. No, just the grapevine said he was suspended for some Communist connection, and he didn’t fight it, so they assumed he was guilty.
Mr. SCHINE. He was in a sensitive position at the time?
Mr. GROSS. He worked at Coles. I don’t know what section he was in.
Mr. SCHINE. Was he friendly with some of these other individuals that we have mentioned?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. I don’t know how to answer that, actually.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Jones?
Mr. JONES. Mr. Gross, I wish that you would think this over very carefully and answer to the best of your knowledge, what reasons can you conceive that could logically or in any other way explain your suspension?
Mr. GROSS. I would say that I have reprimanded several people in my group.  I have removed them and had them transferred out, because they were not, let’s put it, willing workers.  It is very difficult to give a man an unsatisfactory efficiency rating.  If you do, you have got—well, the substantiation is not too difficult, but you are going to run into a lot of trouble.  My section chief had that trouble, and he was unclear just because allegations were made by the person he gave an unsatisfactory rating to.  That person I referred to, my section chief, is Dr. Daniels.  He asked for me under him as section chief. I am a physicist, and he is an engineer. I have more of the administrative work.  I handle the equipments and field tests and a lot of other things and actually the administration of the section.  So in some cases I actually transferred people out. It is not too difficult. I mean, you can swap people, swap secretaries, and what not.  And I am positive it is either that or one or two of the people who I jumped, not in seniority, but in age and what not.  Somebody just passed rumors, and they just accepted it. Any rumor you give about anybody is accepted first and investigated later.
Mr. JONES. In other words, you are saying, in effect, that these rumors here evidently were of greater effect or weight on your suspension than your record there.
Mr. GROSS. No, I don’t think so.  I am going to make a statement which is to the best of my knowledge, and I am not sure.  People who have anything said about them that are Jewish or of Jewish descent or of Jewish connections, are immediately suspended or uncleared.  People are not Jewish and have no Jewish connections that have any charge made against them, are kept in and are still working while investigation goes on. That is the only difference between the two setups.
Mr. SCHINE. Can you give us the names of the individuals who have been kept on?
Mr. GROSS. I know of a Dr. Craig Crenshaw who is being investigated by the FBI. That is C-r-a-i-g C-r-e-n-s-h-a-w.  He is being investigated by the FBI. He is still handling secret and top secret equipment and programs in connection with it.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know why he is being investigated?
Mr. GROSS. No, they did not query me on it.
Mr. JONES. How long has this investigation been underway, sir?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know.
Mr. JONES. How did you know he was being investigated?
Mr. GROSS. Other people that were cleared by the FBI happened to mention it.
Mr. JONES. Who?
Mr. GROSS. Dr. Daniels, for one.
Mr. SCHINE. Can you give us the names of some of the others you mentioned who remain on regardless of the fact that they are under investigation?
Mr. GROSS. As definite, I can’t. By grapevine and such, possibly yes.
Mr. CARR. What is Crenshaw’s position?
Mr. GROSS. He is sectional chief of the Compressional Wave Section.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, you know the name of one non-Jew who is under investigation, but is being kept on?
Mr. GROSS. No, I would say I know more, but not as definite. I know that when the FBI queried me, they asked me if I knew Alex Beichek, B-e-i-c-h-e-k. He works in my section. And the questions seemed to indicate that there was some connection between what I was accused of and him. He is still working in there and has never lost his clearance.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, you know the names of two?
Mr. GROSS. Well, let’s see. I don’t think I can think of any other names where I have enough concrete evidence. It is just a feeling, and a feeling in connection with a fact, that all the people that have been suspended now, and two years ago—over 95 percent of them are Jewish.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know that you were under investigation prior to December 19, 1952?
Mr. GROSS. I assume I was. The FBI implied that they had been looking into this for a while.
Mr. SCHINE. And nevertheless you were kept on?
Mr. GROSS. Yes, but I didn’t think it was a long period of time.  I thought it was a very short period of time.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know the names of some Jewish personnel who were under investigation who are currently working?
Mr. GROSS. No. I know other Jewish personnel that are uncleared that are out in this detached area with myself, but I don’t know of anybody in there that is.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you give us those name, please?
Mr. GROSS. There is Mr. Abraham LePato, L-e-p-a-t-o, and Mr. Edward Brody, B-r-o-d-y.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, are those all the names you can think of at the moment in that category?
Mr. GROSS. Well, can I supply some more information?
Mr. SCHINE. Surely.
Mr. GROSS. When my wife was secretary there, she worked for Mr. Jones, J-o-n-e-s, William Jones, a Negro, and he was the section chief, and the assistant section chief was Mr. Barry Bernstein.  That section also had their section chief and assistant section chief uncleared for a long period of time, then suspended, and then completely cleared and reinstated, the whole thing taking maybe two years or two and a half years.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, you first tell us that you feel it is more than coincidence that individuals under investigation who are not Jewish are kept on, and individual under investigation who are Jewish are not kept on.  Then you tell us the names of two individuals, the only two you know of, who are under investigation, non-Jewish, and kept on.
You tell us the names of three individuals, including yourself, who are under investigation and have merely been transferred to non-sensitive positions.
Mr. GROSS. Well, now, then, remember, I don’t have access to the FBI files, nor to any of the security files at the laboratory.  This is a feeling, as I say. It is from all the people in the past that have had investigation. It is just data that has come to me.  The other people that I know of now, Mr. Leeds and his brother, are Jewish. I know Mr. Ducore is Jewish. I don’t know what Mr. Martin is, but I think I can say I know Mr. Coleman is Jewish.  I will go as far as that.  But I would assume from what I have heard and from what the grapevine says, which is a tremendous thing in any organization like the laboratory, that the feeling is, and it seems to be universal, even between Jews and non-Jews alike, that you have two strikes against you when you start.
Mr. SCHINE. Is it not true that 25 percent of the employees there are Jewish?
Mr. GROSS. Not of the total employees of that laboratory: Maybe of the engineering and the technical personnel, yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Wouldn’t you say that is a large percentage of Jewish personnel?
Mr. GROSS. I wouldn’t have guessed it at twenty-five. That might possibly be true.
Mr. SCHINE. There is no discrimination, therefore, in the hiring of these individuals?
Mr. GROSS. No, I don’t think they can. You see, I think the Civil Service Commission does the hiring, and then you become a part of the military organization.
Mr. SCHINE. In what department do you think the discrimination exists.
Mr. GROSS. G–2, security.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know the names of the individuals who are discriminating?
Mr. GROSS. It would be just my own surmise.
Mr. SCHINE. What is your own surmise?
Mr. GROSS. That the civilian head of G–2 is anti-Semitic. His last name is Reid, R-e-i-d. I don’t know what his first name is.
Mr. SCHINE. How long has he been the head of G–2 there?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know.
Mr. JONES. What is the name of his military counterpart?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. They change more often than civilians.  I would say it was Colonel Sullivan, but I am not positively sure.
Mr. JONES. I think you are right. Colonel Sullivan is the name that was mentioned here yesterday.
Mr. SCHINE. So you really believe that there is discrimination in that department?
Mr. GROSS. I would say so, yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Have you ever done anything about this?
Mr. GROSS. No, I mean every man’s religion is his own business.  I don’t carry any banner for my own or anybody else’s.  I served in the navy as an officer, and that is pretty difficult. I
never had any trouble. I don’t expect it. In fact, I was one of the last to believe it. It is very hard to believe.
Mr. SCHINE. Who was one of the first to believe it?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know.
Mr. SCHINE. It would help us very much if you could think who was one of the first.
Mr. GROSS. I think I heard this three or four years ago.
Mr. SCHINE. Whom did you hear it from at that time?
Mr. GROSS. Possibly the people who were uncleared at that time.
Mr. Bernstein, Mr. Salzman was uncleared at that time.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you give their full names?
Mr. GROSS. It is Barry Bernstein, and I don’t know Salzman’s
first name. I think it is S-a-l-z-m-a-n.
Mr. SCHINE. What were their positions?
Mr. GROSS. They worked in the test equipment section, and Mr.
Salzman was the technician there and Mr. Bernstein the section chief.
Mr. SCHINE. Are they reinstated now?
Mr. GROSS. Mr. Bernstein was.
Mr. SCHINE. And Mr. Salzman wasn’t?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know, I think he left after he was cleared.
Mr. SCHINE. Would that indicate that as discriminatory as they were, they couldn’t possibly push one out?
Mr. GROSS. No, they can’t, because the final decision on the clearance at that time was made in Washington.  But I can point out that after a person is cleared, he does not
necessarily have to get his position back, because that clearance comes back through G–2.  And I have a letter here from the screening board in Washington, which says that you do not need to tell a person that he is cleared after it does come back.
Mr. SCHINE. But in this case one of the gentlemen did get his position back?
Mr. GROSS. They did get their positions back, those two. Mr. Jones, who is a Negro and not Jewish—when you are cleared, you used to get your own position back. He did not.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, Mr. Salzman and Mr. Bernstein, who thought that it was discrimination that forced them into non-sensitive categories, actually were cleared in spite of the fact that it has to go through G–2, the very place that they felt was discriminating against them.
Mr. GROSS. Well, I am not too sure of this, but I don’t think the chain of command worked that way. The papers were all handled by G–2, and then they went down to Washington. It was handled there, and that is tantamount to an order to G–2 to reinstate the personnel.
Mr. SCHINE. And G–2 does not have to give the men their positions back after they have been cleared?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. SCHINE. But in this case they did?
Mr. GROSS. In this case they did.
Mr. SCHINE. What do you think of Mr. Bernstein’s and Mr. Salzman’s feeling that they were discriminated against?
Mr. GROSS. I think so. Since they were cleared, there were no charges against them that could be substantiated.
Mr. SCHINE. Was the same gentleman head of G–2 at that time?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. What was his name?
Mr. GROSS. Reid.
Mr. SCHINE. Have they ever done anything about their feelings of discrimination?
Mr. GROSS. Not that I know of.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know the charges that were made against them at that time?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. SCHINE. They must have discussed it with you.
Mr. GROSS. You see, my wife was a secretary, and I got this second-hand. I know Barry, Barry Bernstein, that is, slightly.
Mr. SCHINE. What did she say was the nature of the charges?
Mr. GROSS. I think Barry was a member of the AVC, and I don’t know what was the matter with Mr. Salzman at all.
Mr. SCHINE. Had they been reprimanded prior to that for any matter?
Mr. GROSS. Not that I know of, I wouldn’t know. I mean, I would never have that knowledge.
Mr. JONES. How long has Mr. Reid been security officer?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. I would say definitely the last five years, and most likely longer? I am not sure.
Mr. JONES. When did these alleged suspensions because of that bias basis start?
Mr. GROSS. I understand it was about two years ago, or three years ago, when this happened. There were about sixteen who were Jewish.
And at the present time, all the six I know of in my group—I mean, not the other laboratories; the six that I see—five are Jewish, and the sixth one, Dr. Daniels’ wife is Jewish.
Mr. CARR. Mr. Gross, you say you were not a member of the United Federal Workers?
Mr. GROSS. No, I wasn’t.
Mr. CARR. Was your wife?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. CARR. Were you a member of the United Public Workers of America?
Mr. GROSS. No. I never joined any of them.
Mr. CARR. You are sure your wife wasn’t a member?
Mr. GROSS. I am positive.
Mr. SCHINE. I asked you before what have you done about this situation that you strongly believe exists? You started to tell me what you had done. I don’t recall what you said.
Mr. GROSS. Well, I talked to my lawyer, a Mr. Katchen, in Long Branch.
Mr. SCHINE. When did you talk to him?
Mr. GROSS. Oh, recently, not too long ago.
Mr. JONES. How long ago?
Mr. GROSS. A week or so.  Because the matter had broke in the headlines. But I had had contacts with him through Dr. Nabel prior to that. But he just mentioned the Anti-Defamation League of the B’nai B’rith. And in the same breath he said, ‘‘They won’t do anything anyway.’’  So I told him then, ‘‘If I do get suspended as a result of any of this, I would like to have you as my lawyer,’’ and left it at that.  But outside, I mean outside the laboratories, or during lunch, we have discussed what you can do, and there is a shrug of the shoulders.  There is nothing you can do.
Mr. SCHINE. You waited until recently, when the newspapers indicated——
Mr. GROSS. Well, I did.  But, though that would be surmising, I think others did go to the B’nai B’rith beforehand. I think Mr. LePato went to the B’nai B’rith, early last spring, and he informed me of that fact, and he saw someone in Asbury Park, and they also told him B’nai B’rith couldn’t do anything.
Mr. SCHINE. Have you ever made any complaints to the individuals in charge at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. GROSS. I saw the representative of the inspector general, and I just complained about the whole system, and I got a letter back stating that the commanding officer could take anybody’s clearance away at any time in accordance with some regulation. And that was the end of it.
Mr. SABINE. I understand that a group of you met two evenings ago. Would you tell us about that?
Mr. GROSS. We met at Mr. Katchen’s office, mainly because he is now apparently collecting information for the Anti-Defamation League, or so I understand,
Mr. JONES. You say he is being retained by the Anti-Defamation League?
Mr. GROSS. I would not know whether he is getting paid for it, or not, but it may appear, because he said he would handle these interviews and what not, with no charge.
Mr. SCHINE. In other words, somebody in the Anti-Defamation League asked him to collect the information?
Mr. GROSS. I think that is the situation.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know who that is?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. SCHINE. It was in conjunction with this situation at Fort Monmouth? Or did it have something to do with this committee’s investigation of the situation?
Mr. GROSS. No, with the situation at Fort Monmouth. It had nothing to do with this. I mean, he just told me to come up here.  I asked him point blank.  And he said, ‘‘Answer everything that doesn’t go against security.’’
Mr. SCHINE. He has been your lawyer for a long while?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. JONES. You said Dr. Daniels referred you to Mr. Katchen?
Mr. GROSS. Yes. He is his lawyer.
Mr. JONES. And evidently Mr. Katchen had been doing considerable work in the line, along this Anti-Defamation line.
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. JONES. What council did Mr. Katchen have to offer this meeting the last couple of nights ago?
Mr. GROSS. To answer all questions to the best of my knowledge.  And he said, ‘‘You know your military regulations, what you can’t talk about.’’  I said I did. That is 380–5.
Mr. JONES. Who was there, Mr. Gross?
Mr. GROSS. Well, Mr. Lovenstein, Mr. LePato, Mr. Brody. Mr. Martin was there. That was the first time I had seen him in maybe three or four years.
Mr. SCHINE. Didn’t you think it was rather unusual that he should expect some of the individuals to tell things that were classified?
Mr. GROSS. No, he didn’t question anything that was classified.
Mr. SCHINE. But some of the discussion was classified?
Mr. GROSS. No. We don’t talk about classified equipment outside.
Mr. SCHINE. Isn’t it true that some of the individuals outlined what they thought might be held against them?
Mr. GROSS. Oh, their charges?
Mr. SCHINE. Yes.
Mr. GROSS. Yes, Mr. Brody read the charges. He has his.
Mr. CARR. What is Mr. Brody’s first name?
Mr. GROSS. Ed. I think it is Edwin.
Mr. SCHINE. Isn’t it true that in discussing the charges, classified information was discussed?
Mr. GROSS. No. The charges are unclassified, and what was in them is certainly unclassified. They accused Mr. Brody’s parents of belonging to the American Labor party.
Mr. SCHINE. Didn’t you think it was rather unusual for a lawyer to call a group of people together who are under investigation by a branch of government and gather up all the charges that the FBI is investigating?
Mr. GROSS. It didn’t strike me so. Now that I think of it, it may be, but it didn’t strike me as unusual at the time.
Mr. SCHINE. What do you think about it now?
Mr. GROSS. Sort of unusual. The only reason I could see behind it was the Anti-Defamation League asked him to. I can’t see anything else.
Mr. JONES. This was Dr. Daniels’ suggestion anyway, wasn’t it, to meet in the lawyers office?
Mr. GROSS. No he was not there that evening.
Mr. JONES. But I mean, it was at his suggestion that Mr. Katchen became interested in this matter and called all of you, called all the persons involved, for a brief discussion of this question; is that right?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know whether it was at his suggestion or not. I couldn’t rightly say. It may have been some one of the other people.
Mr. JONES. Who else was at that meeting?
Mr. GROSS. Mr. Goldberg, William Goldberg. Mr. Ducore came in about half way through, or less than half way through.
Mr. JONES. Were there other lawyers there?
Mr. GROSS. Yes, Mr. Harry Green showed up right near the end.
Mr. JONES. Who is Harry Green?
Mr. GROSS. I think he is Mr. Ducore’s lawyer.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Ducore’s lawyer?
Mr. Gross. Yes.
Mr. JONES. And what was the name of the other lawyer?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. There was another man there. I didn’t know whether he was a lawyer or not. He seemed to be a friend of Mr. Katchen’s.
Mr. JONES. Did he participate in the discussion?
Mr. GROSS. Yes, he did.
Mr. JONES. To what extent?
Mr. GROSS. Asking questions.
Mr. JONES. Would you believe that he may be a representative
of the Anti-Defamation League.
Mr. GROSS. It didn’t occur to me.
Mr. JONES. On the basis of what he said?
Mr. GROSS. No. I didn’t think so. But he may be. I am not sure.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Are you a member of the B’nai B’rith?
Mr. GROSS. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Are you affiliated in any way with the Anti-Defamation League?
Mr. GROSS. No, sir; I am not.
Mr. SCHINE. Who were the other individuals there?
Mr. GROSS. I said, Mr. Lapeto, Mr. Brody, Mr. Goldberg, Mr. Lovenstein, Bob Martin, Bernard, as you call him. I thought his name was always Bob. I didn’t know it was Bernard
And Ducore.  And there seemed to be somebody sitting over here, in that room, but I can’t think of who it was.
Mr. SCHINE. It will come to you. If the emphasis for the discussion, the reason for the meeting, was the situation at Fort Monmouth, rather than this committee’s current investigation, why is it that the question of the methods of this committee arose, and who brought it up?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. I don’t know whether it was brought up as ‘‘methods,’’ or not.  It was just the matter of being investigated, and that was all, period.  Mr. RAINVILLE. Was it the feeling that this committee was responsible for the changes in your classification?
Mr. GROSS. No, not in mine. Let’s put it that way. I think it was suggested by someone there that the army only uncleared these people after they knew you were going to call us, but that was open to debate, because nobody knew when the committee here sent a list of names down that they wanted to speak to.  So we just dropped out. That was discussed, but nobody had any idea on it.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Did you have another meeting discussing this thing last night?
Mr. GROSS. I did not attend it.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Was there one?
Mr. GROSS. Maybe. I don’t know. I can’t say at all. I only spoke to one person last night on the phone, and he just wished me the best of luck and said, ‘‘Just keep calm.’’
Mr. RAINVILLE. Was he a person who had been called before this committee?
Mr. GROSS. No. Mr. LePato called me. We got to know each other there in this area. That was the first time I knew him.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Would you know whether or not it is customary for the FBI to investigate people, not only for removing classification status, but for promotions?
Mr. GROSS. I would say as far as I know the FBI had nothing to do with promotions or investigating people for clearance in connection with promotions.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Then you wouldn’t know that an FBI investigation ever preceded a man’s promotion from one job to another?
Mr. GROSS. No. It seems sort of fantastic. Because I was promoted about a month before I was uncleared. And I never even knew why I was being handed the promotion. I guessed it was for doing good work. I didn’t know.
Mr. RAINVILLE. May I ask you this question. This unrest is occasioned by the firing or the changing of status of certain people out there. Would those people be confined to one or two particular types of work, or does it spread all through the organization, into everything that is done out there?
Mr. GROSS. The present setup seemed to be confined to well, these people in the paper were connected with the radar branch.  Dr. Daniels and myself are connected with applied physics. Mr. Brody and Mr. LePato were connected with the thermionics branch.  So there are three branches at Evans, all of which have been hit.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Are there more branches at Evans?
Mr. GROSS. I think two more, spec and drafting, specifications and drafting, it would be known as, and meteorological. I think there is one other.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Then about half of the divisions out there have actually been touched?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Have they been touched in such a way that the people involved are involved in the same type of work, that is to say; you work in your particular division but you must work with other divisions on certain specific problems?
Mr. GROSS. No, we don’t. There is very little connection, the Radar Branch works on radar, and I don’t know what they are doing. It is military radar, period. That is out. We are in a more
basic research line. We don’t work with the final equipment, except in isolated cases.  You may be familiar with the old moon radar, which hit the moon in 1946.  I have that now. It is an unclassified project. That is the only reason I am mentioning it.  But that is not radar in the sense of military radar.  This is entirely different.  This is something which you don’t use for any military applications.  It is a research tool. I mean, we are doing research.  They are doing equipment. There is a distinct difference between the two.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But if they ran into a snag with their equipment, they might call you in for further research?
Mr. GROSS. Only as we are connected on propagation. I mean, just in that, nothing else. I mean, we are not connected with anything they would have trouble with in designing a set. We would only be in the use of the sets.
Mr. RAINVILLE. There are only two other things that run through my mind. One, in this group of people who were called together night before last to sit down and discuss with the attorney the various problems confronting them, you say you never belonged to any organization that in any way was controversial.  Didn’t you stop and think: What am I getting into here? I don’t know anything about these people, except casually I met three or four of them in my work. Am I possibly now aligning myself with some people who may have something against them, whereas I am only involved in this thing for perhaps clarification, or something else?
Mr. GROSS. It occurred to me, and I said, ‘‘Well, they are all Jewish.’’  He asked us at the beginning whether we would stand on the Fifth Amendment here, or anything like that. Everybody said they wouldn’t. I put in writing to both Representative Auchincloss and the inspector general that I am not a Communist, never have been, and never had any connection with them. So I figured I had nothing to lose, and this was not doing anything except talking about it.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Except that in the association there you might be involving yourself with somebody who, totally unknown to you, would be deeply involved in espionage or something else.
Mr. GROSS. But I might meet a man on the street, or rub shoulders with him at a lunchroom, and the same thing would be true.
Mr. RAINVILLE. You would put that in the same category as meeting with men who might be suspects for some reason or other?  You would assume that a man who attended a meeting on invitation and aligned himself with that group would be in the same category as a man who accidentally sat down to the table and passed a fork?
Mr. GROSS. No, but I know Mr. Brody, Mr. LePato, and I know my own case.
Mr. RAINVILLE. How well do you know those men? I mean, can you say here, now, categorically, that there is nothing to any charge against those people, that nothing can be substantiated?
Mr. GROSS. No; obviously I can’t say that.
Mr. RAINVILLE. What do you know about Mr. Goldberg?
Mr. GROSS. Nothing, except that he seems like a nice sort of person, and a little worried.
Mr. RAINVILLE. And yet by putting your presence there at what amounts to a committee, you were perfectly willing to say that by coming in and sitting down and counseling with these people, ‘‘I accept them as being cleared’’?
Mr. GROSS. No, if they had given me any statement that it was Communist, I would have walked out.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Yes, but you see, your mere presence there built up a committee.
Mr. GROSS. Well, if I went to a lawyer, I wouldn’t investigate the lawyer first.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Let’s take it out of this field entirely. Let’s talk about the Red Cross.  In your community when they want to raise funds, whom do they go to, to put on the committee? People who are known and recognized and give substance to the drive by the fact that they are leading citizens?
Mr. GROSS. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAINVILLE. All right. You were part of a committee that is going to fight this anti-Semitism, or whatever it is, these unfair charges, even if it is not concerned with that. You were part of a committee, and you were putting yourself on that letterhead.
Mr. GROSS. No, they are not forming any committee that I know of.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But the mere fact that they had a meeting is a committee.  I mean, everybody that comes into this room now and talks about that meeting you would ask ‘‘Well, who was there,’’ and they would say ‘‘Gross was there.’’
Mr. GROSS. Well, that is true.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I mean, I don’t say it was a mistake, but I am wondering if you are aware of what you have done in that connection, and if you really mean to say that you are standing up as a witness for them against any of these charges?
Mr. GROSS. No. I mean, nobody asked for an affidavit attesting that I know that this person is not a Communist, and I wouldn’t have given it to him unless I knew it.
Mr. RAINVILLE. He didn’t ask you to go to the committee meeting either, and I don’t know whether G–2 asked you to go to the committee meeting.
Mr. GROSS. No; they didn’t, of course.
Mr. RAINVILLE. You see, it was a voluntary move on your part.
Mr. GROSS. But I was going originally to see a lawyer, because I knew the lawyer had handled other people’s cases.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But he was to be your lawyer, by agreement?
Mr. CARR. No, I had made no agreement with Mr. Katchen until after that meeting. And then, well, I said, ‘‘I don’t have a lawyer,’’  and he asked us if any of us had counsel and he would get in touch with them. Some of the people did have counsel.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I was under the impression that you said you had talked with him before this meeting.
Mr. CARR. Who were some of the counsel at this meeting?
Mr. GROSS. I remember Mr. Green. I don’t remember the other persons’ names. They were mentioned and forgotten.  Let me go back a little in history. Most of the people that are
being hauled out here to your committee meeting were notified a day before I was. They were notified at Squire Laboratory, and I was called the next day. I guess this was Wednesday, and I was told at 10:30 in the morning at the G–2 building. That was an entirely different building, and everybody thought, ‘‘Boy, here is an entirely different case.’’  I went up, and it was Colonel Sullivan again, and he told me the same story. Now, Mr. Goldberg and Mr. Lovenstein wanted to ask him questions about what they could or could not say here. So I went in first to see the colonel, and he said, ‘‘I am just a messenger boy, and you have been asked to testify to the committee, and would you want to go?’’  I said, ‘‘Of course. I have nothing to hide.’’ I said, ‘‘I know Mr. Goldberg and Mr. Lovenstein want to ask you some questions about what they can or cannot say, so may I sit here and listen also?’’  So Mr. Reid went out and got the other two people waiting outside, and came in, and he just reiterated that 380–5 covered everything.  We knew that anyway.  They asked one or two questions, which meant nothing to him, I think, about whether they could name other people that were uncleared. And he said, ‘‘That is not classified information, so of course you can.’’  From that office there, we went for the first time—it was about lunchtime, to Mr. Katchen. I heard his name, and no doubt Nagel spoke to him about me, but it was the first time I had met Mr. Katchen personally. I would have met him if he had been in. Let’s put it that way—his secretary was in, and we just left a message that I had called. And we came back and saw him at 3:30 that
afternoon. I took two hours annual leave from work to accomplish that.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Who suggested that you go at that time?
Mr. GROSS. We thought as we were going up there we might possibly need counsel. I had been at technical meetings and quizzed technically on subjects, but I have never been at anything like this before, and I am not a lawyer, have no connection with that, and I am an engineer, and you get sort of specialized, and I just thought a lawyer may help. He didn’t help. I would have done the same thing whether I went or didn’t go.
Mr. RAINVILLE. What I am getting at: The three of you were sitting there, and apparently the idea crystalized at that meeting that you were going to go up and see the attorney. It must have been, because normally you wouldn’t have gone to see him without an attorney.
Mr. GROSS. That is right. We would have called.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Who crystalized that opinion?
Mr. GROSS. Well, I had been told—let’s see. Who told me, exactly?  Somebody told me that Mr. Katchen had my name as one of the cases, and if I could possibly get to see him some time it may be helpful. I think ‘‘I’’ in a way, would have been ‘‘the three of us,’’ since we were up there anyway, and right near it, to go over at lunchtime.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Then you suggested that the three of you go over and see him?
Mr. GROSS. By the way, there were four, Mr. LePato went over at that time.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But he was not in with Colonel Sullivan. He met you on the way over and joined you and went on over?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. There was one word you used in referring to your coming down to this meeting, and I just wondered whether it was just accidental or reflected an attitude. You say you were going to be ‘‘hauled down’’ to this meeting.
Mr. GROSS. I didn’t say ‘‘hauled,’’ I said ‘‘called.’’ I am sorry.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I wrote it down at the moment. Maybe you meant ‘‘called.’’
Mr . GROSS. I was perfectly willing to come. I consider myself not guilty of anything, and certainly not violating any of the government’s regulations in connection with security, and I figure that everything I can do to help or to clear it up, I will, but I consider the fact that I am not cleared as very detrimental to the government.  I mean, I am not an egotist, there are a lot better engineers than I am, but I have a lot of knowledge, and they have to have it for certain problems, and if I am not cleared, they do not have it, period. And that goes for Dr. Daniels and quite a few other people.  You get to be a specialist, and you can’t replace a specialist in six months or a year. It takes a long time to do it.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Maybe you can answer, then, a question that came up in my mind yesterday.  We had a gentleman testifying here who seemed to be quite an expert in certain work. Yet every time you asked him a question about last year, or when did he go to work here, or what was the firm’s name, or who did he work for, or anything like that, he was very unclear. He couldn’t remember even two years ago. And if you talked to him about his past, you would assume that the man was a graduate of the fifth grade—day laborer, and that that is as far
as he could go. And yet he turns out to be skilled technician, a very skilled technician.  In your experience over there in the laboratory, would you say that there was anything contrary in that?
Mr. GROSS. I would say that would be an exception, an ‘‘absent-minded professor.’’ You know that type.
Mr. RAINVILLE. This wasn’t absent-minded.
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know the person you are referring to.
Mr. RAINVILLE. He couldn’t remember family names, and things of that kind, and there was no impression of being absent-minded.  He just said he couldn’t remember. Not categorically, ‘‘I don’t re-member that,’’ but ‘‘It could have been here,’’ or ‘‘was about that,’’ and so forth and so on. There was no definitive answer to any single question.
Mr. GROSS. I would assume a person with a memory for technical subjects should be able to remember most of everything else. I don’t think your brain is selective as to what you can or cannot remember.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I would assume so from your answers, which are very specific and to the point. You may not remember an exact day in a given month, but you remember it was either September 15th or about September 15th, and the year. He had difficulty remembering the year. He couldn’t even get close to the month, and the day was beyond him.
Mr. GROSS. I have got a good memory.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But this would not be normal in your contact with the people over there?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I have nothing further to add.
Mr. SCHINE. This Communist party member who lived in the house where you were a bachelor, would you repeat his name, please.
Mr. GROSS. Morris Klein. Let me say I don’t say he is a Communist party member. I just say I understand that afterwards he was removed or suspended or fired, but he is no longer working there. And the grapevine told me then—I did not know at the time I knew him—that for some reason he or his family had Communist connections.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you know the year he was suspended?
Mr. GROSS. I think it was after I left there, and maybe the first year after I was married. 1950 would be a good guess, but it could be ’49.
Mr. SCHINE. Who else was suspended along with him at that time?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t think anybody was. I think that was just an isolated case.
Mr. SCHINE. Have you seen him since?
Mr. GROSS. No. I mean, all the bachelors lived there, and there was only one or two good restaurants in town to eat at, and I would see him there, and I think I even double dated with him
once, but that is as far as it went.
Mr. SCHINE. There are a certain group of individuals who came from City College over to Fort Monmouth who were in school at the time you were there. Could you give us their names?
Mr. GROSS. Well, let’s see. Not in connection with this.  I know a Mr. Harold Stein very well. I went to high school with him.  And in college he was a physicist and I was an engineer, so we didn’t see each other too much. But I went to college with him, and I came to work, and he came to the same place two weeks later.  He lives in Long Branch now, or somewhere right near Long Branch.
Mr. SCHINE. Is that S-t-e-i-n?
Mr. GROSS. Yes. I mean, I would say Harold was a close friend.  Let’s put it that way. I have met his wife and his children, and my wife has met his wife and children. But the other people that went to college at the same time—right off I can’t think of any of the
names—Oh, Paul Leeds. His name was not Leeds at the time. He was an electrical engineer.
Mr. SCHINE. What was his name at the time?
Mr. GROSS. I think it was Leibowitz. Let’s see. He was either half a year ahead of me—you know, at City, you can start in the middle, and I think he overlapped a year or two one way or the other.  I don’t know whether he graduated at the exact same time or not.
Mr. SCHINE. Did he tell you of the charges that had been brought against him?
Mr. GROSS. No, Paul and I are very peculiar. We went to college.  Then I met him maybe once after that. Then somewhere in Penn Station I said, ‘‘Where are you working, Paul?’’ He said ‘‘Oh, I am down at Fort Monmouth.’’ I said, ‘‘That is odd. So am I.’’ Then I didn’t see him, oddly enough, until Okinawa.  It was just after the war was over, and this man walked over to me and says ‘‘You are Gross, aren’t you?’’ and we talked. I didn’t see him then until two years later, back in Red Bank. And then I just saw him again maybe a couple of months ago. And I came up here in the car with him today.
Mr. SCHINE. Did he tell you why he was being called before this committee?
Mr. GROSS. No. He said he didn’t know what the charges were.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Gross, how well do you know Paul Goldberg?
Mr. GROSS. Paul Goldberg? Never heard of him.
Mr. JONES. Is that his first name?
Mr. GROSS. William?
Mr. JONES. William.
Mr. GROSS. No, I just knew he worked at the laboratory, and I knew he spent two years in England as a liaison for them.  I never met him outside, never worked under him or anything, in the laboratory.
Mr. JONES. Do you know that his brother-in-law was a Com-munist?
Mr. GROSS. No, I never did.
Mr. JONES. He had never mentioned that, as a result of your acquaintance with him, especially during the past few days.
Mr. GROSS. No, he didn’t. In fact, that strikes me as very odd, because the lawyer asked us definitely if any of us knew any Communist connections, and most of us said outright that we didn’t.  And, as I remember, Mr. Goldberg didn’t say anything at the time.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Goldberg made no reference at that time to his brother-in-law?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Who were the others who made no reference? You said ‘‘most of us said this.’’
Mr. GROSS. You see, the seating arrangement happened to be with Mr. Goldberg sitting there and I sitting in back of him, and I noticed that. But I didn’t notice the others. I know Mr. LePato I heard definitely say ‘‘No, I have no possible Communist relationships.  ’’ In fact, he also told Mr. Katchen what the charges seemed to be against him, that he lived in Washington Village at the time somebody lived next door to him that was a Communist.
Mr. JONES. Goldberg strikes me as being quite a worried man.  What seems to be bothering him? You mentioned it earlier here today, too.
Mr. GROSS, I don’t know. I went out at noon yesterday to get my car inspected. At that time there was a phone call to ask Mr. Goldberg to come up here yesterday afternoon instead of today.  He was due to come up here today, and I found out that Dr. Daniel had said he looked so worried that he called up the nurse to get him two pills. So he must have been really worried.
Mr. JONES. What do you believe is bothering him?
Mr. GROSS. I don’t know. I don’t know him well enough to even think of that.
Mr. JONES. He never gave you any indication or gave Dr. Daniels any indication at that time, when he offered to get him some pills?
Mr. GROSS. I never talked more than two words to him until he moved down to the uncleared area. I can’t even remember the date.  It has been two or three weeks ago, maybe. And that is the only time I got to know him. It is a question of ‘‘Are you going out for lunch?’’ Or something like that, because everybody is sitting around.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Gross, have you ever had any knowledge brought to your attention, either directly or indirectly, as to any subversive activities at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. GROSS. No. The army has very good security regulations there. We don’t have any trouble.
Mr. JONES. When you say ‘‘security regulations’’ are you referring to the present system or the old system?
Mr. GROSS. I am referring to 380–5. They have amplified that with the Blue Book. But I have been uncleared for nine months, so I don’t know all the details. There are a lot of other ones that have cropped up since then. I would go so far as to say, though, that security is too strict for a research organization. You can’t do  research, and you can’t contact people in naval laboratories, the air force laboratories, if the regulations are so strict that it is impossible to transmit information which they need or to get from them information which you need, without a terrific amount of paper work.  380–5 says you have a law of diminishing returns.  If you do too much, you can’t do any other work. If it takes me four hours to get papers out and everything ready to work, and four hours to put them away, according to the checkout system, I can’t work any more than day. I think the regulations were adequate under the
old system.  I think the biggest trouble they ever had there was just absent-minded people leaving safes open; and after you got a double-check system on safes, you have security licked. Because if you take papers out of an area, or anything like that, you either have a whiz pass or, I think, the card number is 558, a little card which says ‘‘The bearer is authorized to carry up to a certain classification outside’’ which means that if I go to Washington, I don’t need to go through all the formality of getting a whiz pass. If I have a card, I can just take the papers and go. That has some drawbacks, especially if you run into absent-minded people. So a while back, instead of anybody having up to secret, I think only branch chiefs were up to secret, and section chiefs up to confidential, and other people up to restricted.  There is the other problem you may have to take equipment out, not classified. You may work in an outside area and have to make a field test. On the basis of that card you can take out equipment.  And if the supervisory personnel, in my case Dr. Daniels, is on the ball, everything is checked in and out of the safes, and you have a good security control, and you do not interfere too much. After all, if I want to sell a system to people there, I have to see the army’s point of view, and the civilian’s point of view, and the civilian’s point of view is always that ‘‘You are interfering with me.’’ Not in my case, so much. I have been an officer, and I know both sides. But you find other people who will always say ‘‘It is too strict.’’ I think it is adequate. ‘‘Adequate’’ of course, isn’t a good word.
Mr. JONES. So you think it is virtually impossible under the present setup there, to remove any top secret or secret information from Fort Monmouth; is that correct?
Mr. GROSS. Yes.
Mr. JONES. In other words, in all the years that you been out there, you have never had any knowledge either directly or indirectly of any subversive activities in any way whatsoever?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. JONES. Never heard anything about it?
Mr. GROSS. No.
Mr. JONES. Nothing on the grapevine at all—that you referred to a few moments ago?
Mr. GROSS. Well, like Mr. Klein was removed for something in connection with Communists.  There was another case way back, when I first came back from the navy. And Mr. Sobell was removed from Mr. Stodola’s section.  And they took a man—I think his name was Albert Socol, I think S-o-c-o-l, but it may be S-o-k-e-l; I don’t know. But he was in the section one day and gone the next. They just had people come in, who took him out, up to security, bingo, went through his desk, and that was the last I ever saw of him.
Mr. SCHINE. Has anybody ever been reprimanded for taking classified material home, or anything of that sort?
Mr. GROSS. No, not in my group, or not among the connections I had. A reprimand wouldn’t be publicized other than that.
Mr. SCHINE. Is there any regulation regarding a breach of that particular security—taking home classified documents?
Mr. GROSS. I understand that Mr. Coleman, I think it was—the grapevine informed me—had taken some stuff home, but I don’t know what happened.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you say that a situation of that sort could be of danger?
Mr. GROSS. No, not if you know what you are doing. Well, let me give you an example.  The military still sends you courses as a reserve officer, and all they want to know is whether you have adequate facilities there for storing it. You have to have a locked desk, a locked room, or something adequate to store courses connected with it. Therefore I would assume that anybody who took anything home would have the same adequate facilities for storing it, until it was brought back. I mean, I have never taken stuff home other than when I was at work and had papers, and was going to Washington that night on a train, leaving from Jersey City, I guess, at 12:30.  So I would go home and have supper, and I would have this exact briefcase [indicating], with something in it, and either permission by whiz pass or permission by the card which I carried, to get it out of the gate, show it to the guard, take it out, go down to Washington, and sit at the meeting. It slept with me in the Pullman.  I’d come back that next night, checked back into our own system in the office, and that was that.  But I think it is sort of silly to take it home to study at home.  If you can’t study, what the heck are you going to do? There are too many distractions at home, and it is, of course, not as adequately
protected.
Mr. JONES. Have either you or your wife been approached to become
members of the Communist party?
Mr. GROSS. No, we were never approached.
Mr. JONES. Never asked in any way to attend meetings, or join the party?
Mr. GROSS. No, never.
Mr. JONES. I have no more questions.
Mr. SCHINE. Thank you very much.

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