EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS The Army-McCarthy 1953-1954 Communist Witch Hunt THURSDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1953 New York, N.Y.

Click on photo for larger image October 20, 1953 In the Camp Evans Administration building (9001), the former Marconi Wireless Station Staff Hotel. (The building to the right)--->

    Over 47 persons from Camp Evans (aka Evans Signal Laboratory) testified at the Army Signal Corps Subversion and Espionage hearings.

Volume 3: begins on Paper page 2187 - adobe page 387.

STATEMENT OF STATEMENT OF WILLIAM P. GOLDBERG

Mr. COHN. Will you give us your full name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. William P. Goldberg.
Mr. COHN. Where are you employed?
Mr. GOLDBERG. At Evans Signal Laboratory.
Mr. COHN. And how long have you been employed there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Thirteen years, I think.
Mr. COHN. And what is your position?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I am an electronics engineer.
Mr. COHN. In what section?
Mr. GOLDBERG. At the moment I am in a section called the Wave Propagation Section.
Mr. COHN. In the thirteen years you have been there, have you had access to any classified material?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Up to what classification?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Secret.
Mr. COHN. Is there some very sensitive work going on at Evans Laboratory?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Involving radar and other things?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Are you acquainted with Aaron Coleman?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. How long have you known him?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Oh, it is a number of years. I don’t remember ex-actly
how many.
Mr. COHN. Have you known him socially at all?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Just known him from around Evans; is that right?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Let me ask you this, Mr. Goldberg. Where do you reside?
Mr. GOLDBERG. 1609 South Wanamassa Drive in Wanamassa.
Mr. COHN. Are you married?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. What was your wife’s maiden name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Rose Oberman.
Mr. COHN. Do you have any brothers or sisters?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I have a sister.
Mr. COHN. What is her name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Ada Steinfeld.
Mr. COHN. Is that her married name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Her maiden name was Goldberg; is that correct?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Where does she reside?
Mr. GOLDBERG. 940 Fox Street, Bronx, New York.
Mr. COHN. You said she resides where?
Mr. GOLDBERG. 940 Fox Street, Bronx, New York.
Mr. COHN. And what is her husband’s name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. They call him Teddy. I think it is Theodore.
Mr. COHN. For how long has she been married to him?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know exactly. Eight or ten years.
Mr. COHN. Eight or ten years?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Something like that. Possibly not that long.  I am not sure.
Mr. COHN. Now, have you been out of the country recently?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Where were you?
Mr. GOLDBERG. England.
Mr. COHN. How long were you there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I just got back a month ago, three weeks or a month ago.
Mr. COHN. When did you last see your sister?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Just after I got back.
Mr. COHN. Did you stay at her house at all?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. For how long a period of time?
Mr. GOLDBERG. About a week, I should say.
Mr. COHN. Was her husband home at that time?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Part of the time.
Mr. COHN. Now, what does he do for a living?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Drives a cab.
Mr. COHN. Do you know whether or not he is a member of the Communist party?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No, I don’t.
Mr. COHN. You don’t know that?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Have you ever heard it said he was?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No, I haven’t.
Mr. COHN. Is this the first time you hear about anything like that?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No. It is not the first time, but I don’t know that he is a member of the Communist party.
Mr. COHN. What is the first you did hear about it?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know, just a general impression.
Mr. COHN. On whose part?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t remember any definite information.
Mr. COHN. I don’t quite know what you mean. Where did you get the impression? The things he said?
Mr. GOLDBERG. That and just general impression.
Mr. COHN. Does he have the Daily Worker around his house?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I believe I did see it.
Mr. COHN. Did you see it there last month?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t remember that, I was too busy.
Mr. COHN. Doesn’t he have any other Communist literature around the house?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I didn’t look. I was hunting for a place to live.  I wasn’t staying there, actually.
Mr. COHN. Is your sister a member of the Communist party?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know.
Mr. COHN. Having seen the Daily Worker around there and gotten this impression about your brother-in-law, didn’t you ever ask?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Not that question, no.
Mr. COHN. What did you ask?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I didn’t ask him anything, actually.
Mr. COHN. Did you ever discuss any of your work down at Monmouth in his presence?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Does he know you work at the Evans Laboratory?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Don’t you know for a fact that your brother-in-law is secretary-treasurer of the Communist party——
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t.
Mr. COHN. Have you ever met any people through your brother-in-law, your sister or brother-in-law?
Mr. GOLDBERG. That is hard to answer. There have been people around sometimes in the house.
Mr. COHN. Can you name any?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. How about the last month when you were staying at the house?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I wasn’t staying. I left my family there while I hunted a place to live.
Mr. COHN. Did you ever sleep there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. During the last month?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. You were staying there, then?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Not during the whole time.
Mr. COHN. Well, during part of the time you were?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Now did they have any visitors? Did you meet anybody there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. My mother, of course, who lives with them.  Other friends of theirs.
Mr. COHN. I would like to get the names of some of those friends.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Of theirs? Abramowitz is one.
Mr. COHN. Abramowitz?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Is that a man or a woman?
Mr. GOLDBERG. A man.
Mr. COHN. Is that the only one you can think of now?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Did anyone in his house ever ask about your work at Monmouth?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Did your brother-in-law ever mention it?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Isn’t that a natural topic of discussion?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. It isn’t?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Are you on speaking terms with your brother-in-law?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. You say he knows you are working in Evans Labora-tory?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. What did you say this Steinfeld address in the Bronx was?
Mr. GOLDBERG. 940 Fox Street in the Bronx.
Mr. COHN. What other evidences of Communist party activity have you seen other than the Daily Worker and Communist literature?
Mr. GOLDBERG. That is all.
Mr. COHN. What other facts did you have that created in you the impression that he was a Communist?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Just those.
Mr. COHN. Have you ever heard him discuss Russia?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I suppose. I don’t recall.
Mr. COHN. Haven’t you ever heard him make plainly pro-Communist statements?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Has he made anti-Communist statements?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. You said before you referred to things he said. What did you mean by that?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know. I don’t remember any specific things, but it is an impression you get.
Mr. COHN. Of what college are you a graduate?
Mr. GOLDBERG. City College.
Mr. COHN. In what year did you graduate?
Mr. GOLDBERG. ’35.
Mr. COHN. Did you know Morton Sobell?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Have you ever met him?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Have you ever had any dealings with the Reeves Instrument Company?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Just what dealings?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I am afraid I can’t reveal the nature of the work, but it was in connection with a proposed contract.
Mr. COHN. When was that?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I forget the exact date. It was several years ago.
Mr. COHN. Seven years ago?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No, several.
Mr. COHN. Who did you deal with at Reeves Instrument?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Mr. Belloc.
Mr. COHN. Is that Harry Belloc?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. And you did not know Sobell at that time?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Was he working at Reeves at that time?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Did you know Aaron Coleman there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. At college? No.
Mr. COHN. Have you, yourself, ever engaged in any Communist activity?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Were you ever asked to join the party?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Were you ever asked to go to a Communist meeting or a meeting which turned out to be a Communist meeting?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. Did you ever discuss communism with your brother-in-law at any time?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I have tried to dissuade him on various occa-sions.
Mr. COHN. Well, you clearly knew he was a Communist, then?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Well, I suspected. I still don’t know.
Mr. COHN. You wouldn’t try to dissuade him if you didn’t know he was a Communist, would you?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Well——
Mr. COHN. Did you try to dissuade him when you were up there last month?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. You have sort of given up on him?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I was too busy, frankly.
Mr. COHN. Did you think it was a good idea for someone working at the laboratory to stay at the home of a Communist?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I couldn’t help it.
Mr. COHN. Well, what is your salary at the Evans Laboratory?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Eighty-five-something. I forget exactly.  Something over $8500.
Mr. COHN. Why do you say you couldn’t help it?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Well, I just came in, with two children.
Mr. COHN. Do you think it is a particularly good thing from the security standpoint to have someone working in one of the most sensitive operations in the country staying at the home of a Communist?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No, I suppose not.
Mr. COHN. You say that was a matter of circumstantial necessity.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Have your sister or brother-in-law ever visited you out in New Jersey?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I believe so.
Mr. COHN. About how often?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Oh, very infrequently.
Mr. COHN. Just when they happen to be driving out there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know. Possibly once or twice in all the time I have been down there.
Mr. COHN. When was the last time?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t remember. It was a very long time ago.
Mr. COHN. Does your brother-in-law know any of your colleagues down at Monmouth?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. COHN. He knows nobody else who works there other than you?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Goldberg, one of the witnesses in here today said he personally was not very satisfied with the security system out there at Monmouth. What is your own evaluation of it?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I really don’t know what to say. In what way?
Mr. JONES. That is what I am asking you. Has there been a change in the security system out there recently?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Don’t forget I have only been back for a matter of a couple of weeks.
Mr. JONES. I am sorry, Mr. Goldberg. I wasn’t up on the earlier part of your testimony.  I understand you were in England.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. JONES. How long were you there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Two years.
Mr. JONES. Two years. I am sorry.  Possibly you may not be aware of it, then.  What were you doing in England?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I was working in the British Laboratories as an exchange engineer.
Mr. JONES. Prior to your trip to England, you were with the  Evans people out there for a matter of ten or twelve years?  Is that right?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. JONES. And what is your evaluation of the security system as it existed during that period?
Mr. GOLDBERG. It seemed entirely adequate to me then.
Mr. JONES. It appeared entirely adequate in every sense of the word.  To the best of your knowledge, you never had any idea of any subversion or subversive activities of any nature?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No, sir.
Mr. JONES. None whatsoever? Is that correct?
Mr. GOLDBERG. That is right.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I get the feeling, Mr. Goldberg, that you are restrained in your answers.  Is there any reason for your feeling that you will not get a fair hearing before this group?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No, I don’t think so.
Mr. RAINVILLE. We had one gentleman in here who discussed the possibility that there was some anti-Semitism in the investigation.  Do you have any feeling that that is true?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I have a feeling?
Mr. RAINVILLE. He didn’t associate that anti-Semitism with this committee as much as he did with the matter of suspension.  I just wanted to clear that for the record, Mr. Goldberg. You were at that meeting last night, though, weren’t you, at which this whole problem was discussed?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. That is why I bring up the question. You are aware that whatever has happened with these suspensions has not been anything that this committee has done. This committee’s investigation of these things is only now proceeding.  Whatever has been done out there has no connection with this committee.  I just wanted to reassure you and point out that perhaps this committee, if there is any anti-Semitism, can either reveal it or clear it up.  And on that basis, we would welcome any cooperation you would want to give. I can understand, of course, where you have a brother-in-law that is at least suspect in your own mind, even if you don’t have definite proof of it, as a Communist, you might have hesitation to speak too frankly, not only not to get him into trouble, but not to further associate yourself with the situation.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes, exactly.
Mr. RAINVILLE. On the other hand, you are not to blame for whom your sister marries.  Relatives and sons and daughters frequently marry people we think are outlandish, not because they are Communists but for other reasons.  Do you feel that there was a need for such a meeting as the one last night, for a sort of a briefing?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes, I think there was.
Mr. RAINVILLE. As I understand it, the discussion was all about the testimony here today. It was not about anything that had happened.
Mr. GOLDBERG. No, it was about the situation you mentioned, the possibility of anti-Semitism.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Who is paying the attorneys for advising you?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I think Mr. Katchen stated that he would be willing to take the job on without cost.
Mr. JONES. He made that statement to you, Mr. Goldberg?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t think he made it to me specifically.
Mr. JONES. Then how did you get that idea?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I heard it.
Mr. JONES. You heard that statement made?
Mr. RAINVILLE. He said he would volunteer his services, that he would not be paid?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Another thing, I am not quite sure what he was referring to at the time, whether it was this, or in connection with the anti-Semitism, or in connection with the suspension.
Mr. COHN. What anti-Semitism?
Mr. GOLDBERG. The gentleman brought up the point that mentioned that there was a possibility of anti-Semitism.
Mr. COHN. What do you think about that?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I think there is a distinct possibility.
Mr. COHN. You think so?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Do you think it is improper for us to question you, for instance?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I am not saying it is in this committee. I am saying it is down at the laboratories.
Mr. COHN. Has your clearance been lifted?
Mr. GOLDBERG. The clearance, yes.
Mr. COHN. When was your clearance lifted?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Thursday.
Mr. COHN. Are you still working at the Evans Laboratory?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes. Not inside the fence, not in the restricted area.
Mr. COHN. Do you think it is improper for the army to go over your record with extreme caution, in view of the fact that you have a brother-in-law who the records show is a high Communist party official in New York, and that you stayed at his home as late as last month, and you are working at one of the most sensitive agencies in the country?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Certainly not. I don’t disagree with that at all.
Mr. COHN. That is all.
Mr. JONES. May I ask, now, getting back to this meeting, Mr. Goldberg, who informed you of this meeting?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t think it was any specially arranged meeting.  I think it just happened.
Mr. JONES. Sure. But who informed you of the meeting?
Mr. COHN. Mr. Gross?
[The witness hesitated.]
Mr. JONES. It was just last night.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Here is what happened. We went up to Fort Monmouth, a group of us, to ask the security officer some questions about what was classified material and what wasn’t.
Mr. COHN. Who is the security officer?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Colonel Sullivan. And then we went in to see Mr. Katchen. He wasn’t there. And we left our names, and we said we would call back. Then we went back down. And I don’t know whether he called back or somebody called him back, but he said to come up to his office at three-thirty.
Mr. JONES. Why did you go back to Mr. Katchen? I mean, how did you happen to go to Mr. Katchen in the first place? Why Mr. Katchen?
Mr. COHN. There must have been somebody who suggested going to him.
Mr. JONES. Who do you mean by ‘‘we’’ who suggested going to see the security officer?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Gross. No, he was called up to see the security officer at the same time.  I and Mr. Lovenstein, who were originally slated to come here
today, went up to see him, and he was called up at the same time.
Mr. JONES. And Mr. Gross?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes. So we all went up together.
Mr. RAINVILLE. That was to see the attorney?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. RAINVILLE. To see the security officer?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. JONES. So you saw the security officer, and then Mr. Gross suggested that, ‘‘We should go back to Mr. Katchen’’?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t think there is anything wrong with Mr. Katchen, but still I don’t know that it was Mr. Gross that suggested it.
Mr. JONES. We are not implying there is anything wrong with it.  But how did you happen to go to him?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I think he has been known to fight in cases of anti-Semitism before.
Mr. JONES. I see. In other words, he has a reputation for that kind of work?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes. I think so.
Mr. JONES. From what you say.
Mr. GOLDBERG. I am not sure.
Mr. RAINVILLE. At this second meeting, you invited others to come?
Mr. GOLDBERG. The second meeting?
Mr. RAINVILLE. Surely there were more than three of you at this meeting?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes. People came. I don’t know where they came from.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But they all, strangely enough, seemed to have their clearance lifted or something? It wasn’t a regular meeting to talk this over?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Oh, no.
Mr. JONES. Who was there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Myself, Mr. Lovenstein, Mr. Gross, Harold Ducore, Bob Martin, Mr. Lapato.
Mr. COHN. Who is Mr. Lapato?
Mr. GOLDBERG. He is a mechanic down there, I think, who has also had his security lifted.
Mr. COHN. How do you spell it?
Mr. GOLDBERG. L-a-p-a-t-o. And he is Jewish, by the way in spite of the name.
Mr. COHN. So do I, but I don’t see it has anything to do with this.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Not as far as this committee is concerned.
Mr. COHN. I don’t think it has anything to do as far as anybody is concerned.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Just look at the statistics.
Mr. COHN. I don’t care if there were 530 out of 530. I don’t see what earthly difference that makes. I don’t think religion or religious persuasion is any cloak for activities against the United States.
Mr. GOLDBERG. I didn’t say they were.
Mr. COHN. And I think it is an outrageous thing to even mention religion in connection with anything like that. I think it is possible you can have 100 percent Jews or 100 percent Catholics or 100 percent Protestant is absolutely no significance at all. Take you, for instance.  Your name is Goldberg. In the last month, you were working at a sensitive spot in Evans Laboratory, where they were working among other things on our defense against enemy attack. You are staying at the home of a notorious Communist, a man who is dedicated twenty-four hours a day to the destruction of this country.  Now, I think the army would be guilty of gross negligence if they didn’t go into this thing with the utmost thoroughness, and, until they had gone into it with the utmost thoroughness, lift your clearance, for your sake as well as anyone else.  And you have agreed with me before that that is certainly a situation which they have to go into with great care, and which you would if you had the responsibility for these things. Isn’t that so?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. COHN. And how that could involve anti-Semitism or anti-anything, I don’t know.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Not in my case. I said, ‘‘Look at the statistics.’’ That is the only evidence I have to offer.
Mr. COHN. I think that is very meager evidence.
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes, it is, I agree.
Mr. JONES. Mr. Goldberg, what percentage, in your best judgment, employed at Evans Laboratory, are Jewish?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know. 25 percent, maybe, or less.
Mr. JONES. Getting back to this meeting again, Mr. Goldberg, what was discussed there?
Mr. GOLDBERG. This whole question.
Mr. JONES. You mean this whole question of anti-Semitism?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Anti-Semitism.
Mr. JONES. That was the basis of the meeting. Nothing else was discussed, nothing about today’s meeting?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Except that they cautioned us again not to disclose classified material. We were to be very careful about that.
Mr. JONES. Those were the only instructions given as far as appearance here today was concerned?
Mr. GOLDBERG. In general, yes.
Mr. JONES. What do you mean by that?
Mr. GOLDBERG. There were other things said, I don’t remember exactly the entire conversation. It went on for a long time. But that was the gist of it.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Weren’t there others there last night?
Mr. GOLDBERG. How many have we got? I don’t remember.
Mr. JONES. You went down as far as Mr. Lapato.
Mr. RAINVILLE. You gave Gross, Lovenstein, Goldenberg, Ducore, Martin, and Lapato.
Mr. GOLDBERG. There was Brody.
Mr. JONES. What is his first name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Ed, I think.
Mr. JONES. Edward Brody?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know. They call him Ed.
Mr. JONES. Anyone else, Mr. Goldberg?
Mr. GOLDBERG. There was another attorney there, Mr. Ducore’s attorney. He came in very late.
Mr. JONES. What was his name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Green, I think.
Mr. JONES. Do you know his first name?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. And anyone else?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I can’t think of any.
Mr. JONES. Now, Mr. Goldberg, have you anything that you would want to tell the committee here that you think would be helpful to us in pursuance of our inquires up here, anything that comes to your mind at all that you feel would be helpful to us in our work? We are primarily concerned with the security program out there at Monmouth.
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t know. As I say, I have only been back a couple of weeks, and I don’t know what the situation is.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Are you doing the same kind of work you did before you left?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Not anymore.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Well, prior to your clearance being lifted you were?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. JONES. Do you know a Mr. Ullmann, Mr. Goldberg, U-l-l-m-a-n?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. Do you know a Morton Sobell?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. How about Jerome Corwin?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. JONES. You know Jerome Corwin?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. While we are waiting for Mr. Cohn, I would like to ask you one question.  If the Communists were to try to organize in the Negro districts, their tendency, of course, would be to organize a whole group of Negroes into a unit, wouldn’t it, into a Communist cell so to speak?  Obviously, if they are going to try to get Negroes, they would get as many Negroes as they could. That they might later infiltrate, white people into that group would also be an advantage, but when they started out it would have to start out from a Negro organization. And if such a cell were discovered and steps taken to prosecute them, you would then have a hundred per cent colored people. That then would be, as you speak of anti-Semi-tism here, racial discrimination there. But actually you would have no choice. You can’t say, ‘‘We can’t indict a Protestant,’’ or ‘‘We can’t indict a Catholic. We have to leave them alone.’’ Someone could come back and say, ‘‘Here we have an all-Baptist unit, and you can’t prosecute them; because that would be discrimination.’’
Mr. JONES. Do you know Leo Fary?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. You don’t know him?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. In your work out there at the Evans Laboratory have you ever had the occasion to have any photography done of your materials or equipment?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Occasionally.
Mr. JONES. Was it still photography, still pictures, or moving pictures, or both?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t recall any moving pictures. I had an occasional still photography done.
Mr. JONES. Who would take these pictures for you?
Mr. GOLDBERG. One of the photographers. I don’t know who it was.
Mr. JONES. You would issue the order to have these pictures taken?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. JONES. Who would you give the order to?
Mr. GOLDBERG. It was through normal channels, I suppose.  I would give it to the girl, and she submits it to the reproduction section.  Mr. JONES. And then they would send up a photographer, and he would take the picture that you would want taken, and then the picture would be returned to you upon development? Is that correct?
Mr. GOLDBERG. Yes.
Mr. JONES. Then what would you do with the pictures?
Mr. GOLDBERG. It depends on what they are for. Maybe just look at them sometimes.
Mr. JONES. So if you just look at them, what do you do then? You throw them away?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. Where do you put them, then?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I don’t remember. It always depends on what they are for. If they are for a report, they are included in the report.
Mr. JONES. That is what we want to know.
Mr. GOLDBERG. If they are for a brochure, they are included in the brochure. If I am supposed to mark names of items on them, I put the names of items on them and send them back. I mean, it all depends.
Mr. JONES. That is right. That is what we want to know.  So some are put in files, and they are used in various ways.  Tell me this: Does anyone have access to all of these pictures
that you would have ordered yourself?  Would anyone else have access to these pictures while they are in your possession?
Mr. GOLDBERG. The people who are supposed to have access to them will.
Mr. JONES. Were most of these pictures classified as secret and top secret?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I have never had anything to do with top secret.
Mr. JONES. Not top secret, but secret, and classified?
Mr. GOLDBERG. They are all classified, or most of them.
Mr. JONES. Have you ever been told or had any knowledge of any of these pictures being moved from the premises at any time?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. None whatsoever?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. To the best of your knowledge, as far as you know, no materials of that nature were taken from the premises?
Mr. GOLDBERG. No.
Mr. JONES. You said ‘‘no’’?
Mr. GOLDBERG. I said ‘‘no.’’
Mr. JONES. Roy, do you have any more questions?
Mr. COHN. Nothing more.
Mr. JONES. That is all Mr. Goldberg.

Page updated December 31, 2003    Page  created June 14, 2003