EXECUTIVE SESSIONS OF THE SENATE PERMANENT SUBCOMMITTEE ON INVESTIGATIONS OF THE COMMITTEE ON GOVERNMENT OPERATIONS The Army-McCarthy 1953-1954 Communist Witch Hunt THURSDAY, OCTOBER 8, 1953 New York, N.Y.

Click on photo for larger image October 20, 1953 In the Camp Evans Administration building (9001), the former Marconi Wireless Station Staff Hotel. (The building to the right)--->

    Over 47 persons from Camp Evans (aka Evans Signal Laboratory) testified at the Army Signal Corps Subversion and Espionage hearings.

Volume 3: begins on Paper page 2130 - adobe page 330.

STATEMENT OF JEROME CORWIN  (1919–1976);

Mr. CORWIN. Jerome Corwin.
Mr. COHN. C-o-r-w-i-n?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right. Although I changed my name, I think
back in ’47. The name was originally Zorwitz, Z-o-r-w-i-t-z.
Mr. SCHINE. And your occupation?
Mr. CORWIN. I am an engineer, a mechanical engineer.
Mr. SCHINE. Where are you currently employed?
Mr. CORWIN. I am at Evans Signal Corps Laboratory.
Mr. SCHINE. What is your function as an engineer at Fort Mon-mouth?
Mr. CORWIN. I am chief of the Mechanical Engineering Section of the Spec and Drafting Branch of Evans Signal Corps Laboratory.
Mr. COHN. You work at Evans right now?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. And as chief, what are your duties?
Mr. CORWIN. Our group is responsible for all of the mechanical work at the laboratory in general. We do some internal work, and
also we act as mechanical consultants to the other groups. We don’t have any particular field that we are responsible for in that sense.
Mr. SCHINE. And would you describe some of the projects that the laboratory carries on?
Mr. COHN. Just in general.
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I think you know it covers radar, meteorology, actually all the stuff that the Signal Corps is responsible for with
the exception of communications, which is at another laboratory, and component parts, which is at another laboratory.
Mr. COHN. Does this Evans Laboratory have a responsibility in connection with development of devices to protect us against atomic
attack and provide for detection of it, and radar?
Mr. CORWIN. They do radar work. There is one group there that does the radar work, the work on the rest of the equipment.
Mr. SCHINE. Guided missiles, too?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t know too well the details of it, I really couldn’t say.
Mr. COHN. The radar work in part would be directed at detection of atomic attack. Is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I don’t know how much I can say. I can say it is radar work of the Signal Corps type.
Mr. SCHINE. How long have you been doing this work?
Mr. CORWIN. I was first employed in October of 1940. I came in as a draftsman at that time.
Mr. SCHINE. And how long have you been chief of the laboratory?
Mr. CORWIN. This is a section. I would say something that like eight years, something like that in round figures.
Mr. SCHINE. Where did you go to school, Mr. Corwin?
Mr. CORWIN. I graduated from City College back in ’37. Then I just recently got my master’s at Rutgers. Rutgers has an extension
college at Fort Monmouth, and they encourage additional academic background.
Mr. SCHINE. We meant to ask you: You have access to classified material?
Mr. CORWIN. I am cleared up to secret, as far as I know.
Mr. SCHINE. And you deal with classified material in the every-day course of your work?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. Well, it is rather limited, because our work, as I said, deals with the mechanical field, and most of the equipment
we deal with usually is of an unclassified or restricted nature. We are not involved with radar in any form.
Mr. COHN. Have you always had access to classified material since you have been at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. So far as I know.
Mr. SCHINE. When did you enter City College?
Mr. CORWIN. I entered in ’32. I attended one day session, and changed to the evening session. That is why it took me five years.
Mr. SCHINE. Some of your classmates at City College are working now at Fort Monmouth, I take it?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, if you say ‘‘classmates,’’ I don’t really know, because I got out in ’37.
Mr. SCHINE. Well, some City College graduates. Would you name some of those that you know?
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, yes. Well, I know Aaron Coleman, Harold
Ducore, Sam Pomerantz. Actually I would say there are quite a list of City College graduates there.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you name as many as you can?
Mr. CORWIN. I will try. It is a little difficult.
Mr. SCHINE. Just take your time and spell the names as you go on.
Mr. CORWIN. Samuel Levine.
Mr. SCHINE. L-e-v-i-n-e?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. Just continue.
Mr. CORWIN. Offhand, I can’t think of any others. I am sure there are more.
Mr. COHN. Rudolph R-i-e-h-s?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. COHN. A man named Loonie, Bill Loonie?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Was he at City College?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I think he is a graduate of City College. Let’s see. Is his name Lonnie? I think he changed his name.
Mr. COHN. Did he? I noticed in the City College directory it was spelled L-o-o-n-i-e, and now it seems to be spelled L-o-n-n-i-e, and
that sort of threw me. Is that the same fellow?
Mr. CORWIN. I think he changed it because it was a very uncom-fortable name, I think he was a lieutenant in the Marine Corps,
and it was uncomfortable to be called a ‘‘Loonie Lieutenant.’’
Mr. COHN. That is apparently the same fellow, isn’t it? How about Henry Burkhard?
Mr. CORWIN. Burkhard? I can’t place him.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you name some of the courses you took while you were at City College?
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, God.
Mr. COHN. What degree did you get?
Mr. CORWIN. Mechanical engineering.
Mr. COHN. You took the courses leading up to that?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right, prescribed courses.
Mr. COHN. Physics?
Mr. CORWIN. Physics.
Mr. SCHINE. You took mathematics?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. Was Mr. Coleman in your class at City College?
Mr. CORWIN. No, he was not.
Mr. COHN. When he says ‘‘in your class,’’ interpret that as being in any class with you, any section.
Did you take any classes with him?
Mr. CORWIN. Not that I know of.
Mr. COHN. Did you know him at City College?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I didn’t.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you take any classes with Mr. Ducore?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. COHN. Did you know Mr. Ducore at City College?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I didn’t.
Mr. SCHINE. When did you first meet Mr. Coleman and Mr.
Ducore?
Mr. CORWIN. I met them both at the laboratory, and actually I met Mr. Ducore first, in chronological order, I think some time in
’41, roughly.
Mr. SCHINE. You had more than an occupational acquaintance with him?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I first met him through the laboratory, and it started purely on a business association but later become social.
Mr. SCHINE. It became social, and you became good friends?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. You have known them both, and you have seen them frequently?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Through the forties and since that time?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. Socially?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. When you first applied for a position at Fort Mon-mouth, you had to state references for your job. Would you state
the names of the references you gave at that time, if you can?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I lived in New Rochelle, New York, and I am sure that the references that I chose were local people. I can’t re-member
all the names. I can only remember one. I think it was Henry Wissecker.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you spell that, please?
Mr. CORWIN. W-i-s-s-e-c-k-e-r—who has died recently. I used to work for him in New Rochelle. He had a stationery store. And I am
afraid I can’t remember the other names. But I am sure that they were all residents of New Rochelle.
Mr. SCHINE. When you were at City College, you knew about the Communist movement?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, to tell you the truth, I lived at New Rochelle when I attended City College, and I didn’t have much social contact
there at all. I went to school and left at night to come back and work, and I didn’t spend much time around the college area. I
didn’t really get to know too many people at that time.
Mr. SCHINE. You knew some people?
Mr. CORWIN. The people in my mechanical group that went through the four years with me. And, actually, today, I can’t re-member
a single name. I probably can recognize some, if you have them.
Mr. SCHINE. Julius Rosenberg was in your mathematics class at City College?
Mr. CORWIN. Was he? That is news to me.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you know Julius Rosenberg?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I never met him.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you ever know he was at college at the same time you were?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, not until, I would say, later on.
Mr. COHN. Did you ever meet him at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I didn’t. To the best of my knowledge I didn’t.
Mr. COHN. You say you only met Coleman and Ducore at City College; is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. No, at the laboratories.
Mr. COHN. I am sorry. At Monmouth Laboratories. You didn’t know them before?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Then you obviously couldn’t have been a reference for employment for either Coleman or Ducore, if you didn’t know
them?
Mr. CORWIN. Not then, no, sir.
Mr. COHN. And neither one of them could have been a reference for you?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Did you know a woman named Vivian Glassman?
Mr. CORWIN. Not that I can remember.
Mr. COHN. And you never met Rosenberg at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. I didn’t even know he was there.
Mr. COHN. Did you ever participate in any way in any Com-munist activities?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. At City College, were you ever asked to attend any meetings of the Young Communist League?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Were you ever asked to participate in any Communist activities?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. I wasn’t asked to participate in anything there, to the best of my knowledge.
Mr. COHN. Have you ever belonged to any organization which is a Communist organization or Communist-dominated?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Now, how frequently were you with Mr. Coleman out at Monmouth after you met him?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, actually, I first met him—I am afraid I can’t remember the exact years, but roughly about ’41. And it was a very
meager contact. I think I was still a draftsman at that time, and he was a project engineer, a relatively high position. Then I think
that up until the time he left for the Marine Corps, I didn’t know him very well at all. But on his return he took over some work,
which required a lot of our work, on the mechanical aspect of it, and then our business acquaintanceship sort of grew into a social
acquaintanceship. And socially, I would say I know him very, very well.
Mr. COHN. You know him very well?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Do you know whether or not Mr. Coleman is a Com-munist?
Mr. CORWIN. I can say that I believe he is absolutely not.
Mr. COHN. Has he ever expressed any pro-Communist views that you have heard?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Did you know he was a good friend of Julius Rosen-berg?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I don’t believe he is or was.
Mr. COHN. Has he ever told you that?
Mr. CORWIN. After this Rosenberg case, he has indicated that he had either met him at school or something like that, but that he
had no other contact with him whatsoever.
Mr. COHN. Did he ever tell you he went to Young Communist League meetings with Rosenberg?
Mr. CORWIN. He told me that recently.
Mr. COHN. When did he tell you that?
Mr. CORWIN. I would say within the past week or so.
Mr. COHN. He must have been fairly friendly with Rosenberg then; isn’t that right?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I don’t believe so. That is the way he ex-pressed it to us.
Mr. COHN. He was on Young Communist League terms with him.
Mr. CORWIN. My opinion is that Coleman must have been a young person at that time, not mature, and with some curiosity in-volved in it.
Mr. COHN. Do you think he was mature in 1946?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, I imagine he would be.
Mr. COHN. Do you know whether he walked off with any secret documents in 1946?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I know that he had some trouble about secret documents.
Mr. COHN. What was the trouble he had?
Mr. CORWIN. As I understand it—and, of course, I have gotten some information from him—but putting it all together, he had had
some documents at home of a classified nature. I don’t know the classification, but they were classified.
Mr. COHN. Was he suspended after that?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, he was penalized.
Mr. COHN. Then he was reinstated?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, the suspension actually was a loss of pay for a period of time. I think it is just automatic. You are still working.
I think it is just a penalty, rather than what we would call a sus-pension.
Mr. COHN. Did Coleman tell you he knew Morton Sobell pretty well?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. He had met Morton Sobell; through busi-ness contacts he met him, at school, I don’t know how well.
Mr. COHN. Was he on Young Communist League terms with Morton Sobell, do you know?
Mr. CORWIN. Not that I know. I don’t believe so.
Mr. COHN. Did he tell you Morton Sobell ever stayed at his home out in New Jersey?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Did he tell you Morton Sobell visited him eight times out at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. He never told me. I wouldn’t know about it.
Mr. COHN. What did he tell you about his association with Sobell?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, in the first place, he had some work with which I was also connected that I think dealt with the company
named Reeves, Reeves Instrument.
Mr. COHN. Up on 92nd Street, New York?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right. And I think that Sobell was working for Reeves at that time and was either responsible or had some
connection with the actual work that was being done for Fort Mon-mouth, and Coleman was responsible for the entire program, or
something like that.
Mr. COHN. Then he had dealings with Sobell. Is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. So I understand. I don’t know how much, or what the amount of contact was, but he did have dealings with Sobell,
I know.
Mr. COHN. But you, yourself, never had any dealings with Sobell?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. COHN. When did he tell you he went to Young Communist
League meetings with Rosenberg?
Mr. CORWIN. Just about a week ago.
Mr. COHN. He had never disclosed that to you before?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. COHN. In other words, after the Rosenberg case broke, you were discussing Rosenberg and the Rosenberg case, but at that
time he didn’t mention it to you?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. COHN. He mentioned it to you for the first time within the past week?
Mr. CORWIN. To the best of my knowledge.
Mr. COHN. Was this before he was suspended, or after he was suspended?
Mr. CORWIN. Actually it was after, because it was listed as one of the charges, and that is what started the discussion.
Mr. COHN. Did he tell you what the other charges were?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. COHN. What were the other charges?
Mr. CORWIN. I can’t remember them all, but roughly I think that it was that he knew Rosenberg and this YPL or whatever it is.
Mr. COHN. The Young Communist League.
Mr. CORWIN. And that he knew Sobell. I can’t remember the de-tails, but there is something there. Oh, this classified document en-tered
into it.
Mr. COHN. What else?
Mr. CORWIN. I think he said that members of his family were members of or had registered at APL or something like that.
Mr. COHN. ALP?
Mr. CORWIN. ALP.
Mr. COHN. Did he tell you which members of his family?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, it was his mother and sister. And that is about all I can remember, offhand.
Mr. COHN. Did he show you the letter of charges, by the way?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. He did. That went into some detail, did it not, as to his associations with Morton Sobell?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir. It was a short paragraph. I don’t remember the exact content of that, but it said that he had relationships with
him. I don’t remember the exact details.
Mr. COHN. Now, let me ask you this, Mr. Corwin. Did you ever take secret documents to your home?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. You never did. Is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. It was made very clear to you up at Monmouth that that was a grave violation of security regulations. Is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. COHN. That was something that was not to be done under any circumstances without permission. Is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. Without permission,
Mr. COHN. Do you know of any other instances where people were suspended for taking secret documents home, classified docu-ments
home?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I don’t. There has been loss of pay.
Mr. COHN. Let’s say ‘‘penalties.’’
Mr. CORWIN. Penalties for leaving them out or leaving unlocked safes, the usual thing. That has happened there. But I don’t know
of any other incident where someone has taken a document home.  The reason I sort of hesitated is that in the past and some time
ago under certain conditions you were allowed to take classified documents to attend meetings, conferences, and the like.
Mr. COHN. That was for a specific purpose and with specific per-mission?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Did Coleman tell you when he last saw Sobell?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. He didn’t. Not the exact date or anything like that. I could guess.
No, even a guess wouldn’t be good, because I know he was work-ing around a certain time on some equipment that would bring him to Reeves.
Mr. COHN. We can agree it wasn’t within the last two years. He hasn’t visited him in jail, has he?
Mr. CORWIN. I would say absolutely not. He probably would have told me.
Mr. COHN. Were you surprised when he told you he had gone to
Young Communist League meetings with Rosenberg?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, I was, because I didn’t see the point of going even. He told me he had attended just one meeting and saw what
it was all about and was, in his own words, pretty disgusted with the whole set-up and left.
Mr. COHN. Did he tell you Rosenberg was the man he had taken to that meeting?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. CARR. That is what he told you in 1953?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. That is what he told you last week.
Mr. CORWIN. With respect to this meeting, yes,
Mr. COHN. Were you pretty friendly with Harold Ducore?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. He and Coleman were pretty friendly, too. Is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. I could say yes. Lately they had some misunder-standings.
Mr. COHN. When was the misunderstanding?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, they bought a house together.
Mr. COHN. When was that?
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, gosh. I guess in ’41 or ’42.
Mr. COHN. Where was that house?
Mr. CORWIN. Wait a minute. It was about four years ago.
Mr. COHN. In the late ’40’s. Isn’t that right?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. COHN. Where was that house located?
Mr. CORWIN. It is on Branch Avenue and Long Branch.
Mr. COHN. Then they had some misunderstanding over that; isn’t that right?
Mr. CORWIN. That is true.
Mr. COHN. They made up after that, didn’t they?
Mr. CORWIN. As far as I know, their social relationship never got back to the original closeness they had.
Mr. COHN. Now, did you continue your friendship with Ducore nevertheless?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, although my friendship tapered off, too, and, actually, I guess people get married and they have other interests
and start to drift apart. We drifted as far as the Ducores were con-cerned, but we didn’t drift as far as the Colemans were concerned.
Mr. COHN. I see. Have you talked to Mr. Ducore lately?
Mr. CORWIN. Only over the phone. He is part of my car pool, and he called me one night to say he couldn’t come in.
Mr. COHN. Did he give you any of the details of his suspension?
Mr. CORWIN. He gave me a little bit. I think he indicated that he had been a member of some union out there, I don’t remember
the exact name of it. Is it the United Public Workers, or something like that? And also that his wife was a member. That is all.
Mr. COHN. Did he tell you he was a friend of Rosenberg and Sobell?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. So far as I know he didn’t know them. So far as I know.
Mr. COHN. I don’t think I have anything else.
Mr. CARR. You say Ducore was a member of your car pool up until he phoned you and said he would not be going in to work?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. CARR. So you have been seeing him every day for the last several years?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. CARR. To get back to the documents, do you consider it a se-rious matter to have classified documents in your home?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CARR. Well, was it in only one instance, to your knowledge, that Coleman was reprimanded for this?
Mr. CORWIN. So far as I know, just once.
Mr. CARR. Was he ever reprimanded for leaving documents in unsecure places in the office?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. CARR. Were you ever reprimanded for that?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. CARR. What did that situation involve?
Mr. CORWIN. I think I left out a classified document, and I was penalized a day’s pay, or maybe it was two days’ pay for that.
Mr. CARR. Do you recall what the classified document was? I don’t mean what it was, but what it was classified as.
Mr. CORWIN. I believe it was secret.
Mr. CARR. When you say you left it out, does that mean you were working with it during the day and you forgot to carry it back to
its repository?
Mr. CORWIN. That is correct. Actually, I didn’t return to my office that night, and unfortunately the person that was supposed to
clean up missed it. I took the penalty, because I didn’t tell them in detail that it was there, so it was really my responsibility. But
I did not get back to the office at the closing time.  Mr. CARR. When you say you took the penalty, does that mean
you ‘‘covered’’ for the person who actually left it out?
Mr. CORWIN. Not actually. I felt I was responsible for not having made sure to tell him to pick it up. I didn’t cover up.
Mr. CARR. If you left such a document out at your desk, or at the place where you work, would anyone in the building have access
to it?
Mr. Corwin, Well, I guess they would. It is on the desk. Although people coming in, in an office, usually, unless we know who they
are, would be watched carefully, or would be asked what they are doing there, and so on. I have an office where the two of us, two
engineers, myself and an assistant and some girls, keep all our classified documents, although we don’t keep very many because
we don’t have much access to it.
Mr. CARR. What was the date of this?
Mr. CORWIN. This was quite some time ago. I would guess in ’49 or something like that.
Mr. CARR. In ’49. Could you give us a little bit of information concerning what you would do with a classified document? You, in
the course of your work, have need for a classified document?
Mr. CORWIN. Occasionally.
Mr. CARR. Occasionally. Where do you obtain that document?
Mr. CORWIN. When we work on a request for some group, they supply the necessary background information that we may need to
do the job. They may supply this particular document. They hand it to us, and we have to sign a receipt for it, and my girl takes it
and sets it in the file and puts the receipt on it. Anybody that takes it out of the file sign for it and returns it every night, and so on.
Mr. CARR. Is there a central repository for the classified docu-ments?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, there is a central——
Mr. CARR. I mean within your office, your building.
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. Within my office we take care of all the docu-ments for our particular people that are associated with us, and
they are all in at night and locked in the safe and so on.
Mr. CARR. Who has the primary responsibility for that?
Mr. CORWIN. My secretary takes care of the details and keeps the route sheets, to indicate who has it, and so on.
Mr. CARR. So, in effect, it is your responsibility?
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, yes, definitely.
Mr. CARR. I am not talking about merely a document that ob-tained, but a document obtained for your office.
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. CARR. It becomes your responsibility. You become a security officer concerning that document?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir. I don’t know if the exact term is right, but I am responsible for all documents.
Mr. CARR. For anyone in your office.
Mr. CORWIN. That is right, I am responsible for the whole sec-tion, all the people involved.
Mr. CARR. As for that document, as long as you need it, you are responsible for it; as long as it is needed in your particular office,
your section, you are to keep it under secure conditions. Is that a locked safe?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, combination lock.
Mr. CARR. When do you return that document to either the agen-cy that gave it to you in the first place or the security officer?
When does that happen?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, when we no longer have need for it. We return it immediately, because there is no point in keeping it.
Mr. CARR. All right. Do you return it immediately to any central place, or to a security officer in the building?
Mr. CORWIN. There has been a recent change in the handling of secret documents and the like.
Mr. CARR. How recent?
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, I would say about a month or more. But actu-ally we have very seldom had secret documents. Most of our stuff
was of a confidential or restricted nature. With this new stuff, the secret stuff is only handled from a central laboratory repository, de-livered
and transmitted in that manner. The reason I say this is because I haven’t had any secret material for quite a while.
Mr. CARR. Since the new arrangement on the documents. Now, this new arrangement was only set up in the past month, or month
and a half?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, let’s say two or three months, roughly. Not too long ago.
Mr. CARR. What was the old system?
Mr. CORWIN. The old system was to get receipts from people. But it could be sent through a special messenger from one group to an-other
without having to go through the top security lab set-up.
Mr. CARR. But now it works how?
Mr. CORWIN. The secret stuff must go only to the top security of-ficer, and then can be transmitted to anyone.
Mr. CARR. So now the same situation is true. The security officer then would deliver the document to you for use in your section, and
then you become the security officer for the document?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. CARR. And when you are finished with it, it is returned to the security officer?
Mr. CORWIN. I think that is correct. Now, the reason I am a little puzzled by it is because I read the
regulations, but I haven’t had any secret documents in quite some length of time. And truthfully, my girl keeps a check on it, and I
get together with her before we do anything of that type.
Mr. CARR. When you return such a document to the security offi-cer, is your receipt given back to you, and is it entered in the log?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. I understand they have both the log and the receipt. You sign for this, and your receipt is returned to you when
you bring back the document.
Mr. CARR. Is the new set-up that has been put into effect more secure, do you think?
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, yes, very much so.
Mr. CARR. Prior to that, the document would flow through many hands before it got to you?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, with all classified material of a secret nature, there were always receipts. The restricted didn’t have that check.
There were always receipts, but it didn’t have to go through any security office before it got any place, and I don’t think logs were
kept in its transit too well. That is, there were logs in each office saying when they had it and——
Mr. CARR. Was there an incident that led to this new change?
Mr. CORWIN. I would guess that the number of violations of all natures were increasing slightly, or they felt the percentage was
too high and some drastic steps had to be taken. But that is a guess on my part.
Mr. CARR. In other words, there were too many of these in-stances like your case and Coleman’s case, where documents were
left out, or they were taken home?
Mr. CORWIN. I would say as far as documents being taken home, I don’t recall any other incident.
Mr. COHN. This Coleman incident: there is a big difference be-tween something lying around and something being taken home.
Mr. CORWIN. It is a secured area. It is well protected.
Mr. COHN. We can agree there is a big difference between having a couple of documents out and taking documents to your house.
Mr. CORWIN. I think if you would check all the people at the lab-oratory they probably have had some violation of that nature, I am
not trying to look it down——
Mr. CARR. Is this considered a serious offense at Monmouth, leaving documents out insecure?
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, yes.
Mr. CARR. Now, the penalties are stricter than they were prior?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I think they are slightly stricter. It all de-pends on the circumstances which surround the particular inci-dents.
Mr. CARR. What is the usual suspension? One day, such as you received in ’49?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I think the secret category starts with two, or maybe it is a week now. I don’t remember. And then, of course, if
it happens more than once you would be fired.
Mr. CARR. Of course, if the document was really of a highly con-fidential nature, or such as to be classified secret or even top se-cret,
it would only have to be left out for ten minutes to cause harm.
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. Although there are some other circumstances that surrounded my incident and a lot of others. We have been a
little delayed in reducing the classification of a lot of our docu-ments.
Mr. COHN. You mean down-grading?
Mr. CORWIN. Down-grading. It is because it is a physical prob-lem, and we never have had enough people to do the work that we
are responsible for. So it has created a problem.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Corwin, what are Mr. Coleman’s functions at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. His functions were——
Mr. SCHINE. Or ‘‘were’’?
Mr. CORWIN. He was chief of the System Section of Radar Branch.
Mr. COHN. Chief of the System Section of Radar Branch?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. And as such, what did he do?
Mr. CORWIN. He was responsible for certain radar equipments.  They are of a classified nature.
Mr. SCHINE. He had access to classified material and plans?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes; the details of which I really don’t know.
Mr. COHN. He had an awfully sensitive job, didn’t he?
Mr. CORWIN. I would say it is rather sensitive, yes, sir.
Mr. COHN. He had that up until last week?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I think he was—shall we say his clearance was taken away for quite a period of time.
Mr. COHN. What did he do after his clearance was taken away?
Mr. CORWIN. I think they put him in a so-called non-sensitive area where no classified material is around. And he told me this:
that he was writing instructions for books, or something. The army has a correspondence school for soldiers, and he was preparing les-sons
and questions.
Mr. COHN. For how long a period of time was he chief of this radar section?
Mr. CORWIN. For quite a period of time. It is hard to remember the exact dates. Eight years or some considerable amount of time.
Mr. SCHINE. Approximately when did he take this secret docu-ment home with him?
Mr. CORWIN. I will have to guess. I don’t remember.
Mr. SCHINE. Was it 1946?
Mr. CORWIN. That would probably be right.
Mr. SCHINE. If a document of this nature got into the hands of Soviet Russia, could it be of value to them?
Mr. CORWIN. I really couldn’t say. I don’t know what he had. I don’t even know what the classification was. All I know was that
they were classified.
Mr. COHN. Let’s put it this way. Mr. Coleman was head of the section of radar, dealing with highly classified material. If he had
turned over papers which came into his possession to the Soviet Union, would they have been of any benefit to the Soviet Union,
do you think?
Mr. CORWIN. I would guess they would be. It is hard for me——
Mr. COHN. There is no doubt about that, is there?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I guess so. I don’t know how much they know or we know.
Mr. COHN. Don’t let’s assume that other people have given them stuff before. Let’s assume that we think they don’t know anything.
Mr. CORWIN. These were classified documents. They certainly shouldn’t have gotten into the hands of any other country.
Mr. COHN. And radar was certainly an awfully sensitive thing. That is one thing we are relying on in the way of defense to atomic
attack. Isn’t that right?
Mr. CORWIN. I imagine so. I don’t really know enough about it.
Mr. SCHINE. He didn’t discuss with you just what the document was that he had taken home with him?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Do you know whether he took documents home on any other occasions?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I really don’t know.
Mr. SCHINE. What was Mr. Coleman’s attitude about taking the document home with him, being reprimanded for it.
Mr. CORWIN. Well, he felt he deserved a reprimand. Actually, he is a very conscientious and very able engineer. I think he has done
a tremendous job at the place.
Mr. SCHINE. He is a good first class engineer?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. He isn’t in your car pool, is he?
Mr. CORWIN. He was before his clearance was taken away.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Ducore was in your car pool at that time, too?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir. They lived together.
Mr. COHN. As I understand it, you did not know either Coleman or Ducore before going to Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. COHN. You met them first at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. In your car pool; who else was in the car pool, by the way?
Mr. CORWIN. Sam Levine.
Mr. COHN. He was at City College with you, of course?
Mr. CORWIN. He went to City College, too.
Mr. COHN. He was in the class with Coleman?
Mr. CORWIN. I believe so.
Mr. SCHINE. And who else was in the car pool?
Mr. CORWIN. Louis Volp, V-o-l-p.
Mr. COHN. And he is another City College man?
Mr. SCHINE. If a document of this nature got into the hands of
Soviet Russia, could it be of value to them?
Mr. CORWIN. I really couldn’t say. I don’t know what he had. I don’t even know what the classification was. All I know was that
they were classified.
Mr. COHN. Let’s put it this way. Mr. Coleman was head of the section of radar, dealing with highly classified material. If he had
turned over papers which came into his possession to the Soviet Union, would they have been of any benefit to the Soviet Union,
do you think?
Mr. CORWIN. I would guess they would be. It is hard for me——
Mr. COHN. There is no doubt about that, is there?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I guess so. I don’t know how much they know or we know.
Mr. COHN. Don’t let’s assume that other people have given them stuff before. Let’s assume that we think they don’t know anything.
Mr. CORWIN. These were classified documents. They certainly shouldn’t have gotten into the hands of any other country.
Mr. COHN. And radar was certainly an awfully sensitive thing.  That is one thing we are relying on in the way of defense to atomic
attack. Isn’t that right?
Mr. CORWIN. I imagine so. I don’t really know enough about it.
Mr. SCHINE. He didn’t discuss with you just what the document was that he had taken home with him?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. COHN. Do you know whether he took documents home on any other occasions?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I really don’t know.
Mr. SCHINE. What was Mr. Coleman’s attitude about taking the document home with him, being reprimanded for it.
Mr. CORWIN. Well, he felt he deserved a reprimand. Actually, he is a very conscientious and very able engineer. I think he has done
a tremendous job at the place.
Mr. SCHINE. He is a good first class engineer?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. He isn’t in your car pool, is he?
Mr. CORWIN. He was before his clearance was taken away.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Ducore was in your car pool at that time, too?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir. They lived together.
Mr. COHN. As I understand it, you did not know either Coleman or Ducore before going to Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. COHN. You met them first at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. SCHINE. In your car pool; who else was in the car pool, by the way?
Mr. CORWIN. Sam Levine.
Mr. COHN. He was at City College with you, of course?
Mr. CORWIN. He went to City College, too.
Mr. COHN. He was in the class with Coleman?
Mr. CORWIN. I believe so.
Mr. SCHINE. And who else was in the car pool?
Mr. CORWIN. Louis Volp, V-o-l-p.
Mr. COHN. And he is another City College man?
Mr. RAINVILLE. He never referred to it?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. COHN. He never referred to anything in connection with ‘‘What happened today?’’
Mr. CORWIN. No, the fellows were pretty security conscious. He also went to school, and he might have been bringing home his
books and lessons, I went to school, too, and I might have been bring home books in myself. We got a pass for the books and that
is the way it operated.
Mr. SCHINE. He was very careful never to let you see what was in the briefcase?
Mr. CORWIN. I never saw the briefcase open, to my knowledge.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But if they were school books, he might have dis-cussed his class work with you?
Mr. CORWIN. We were interested in what was happening in the field, and that is enough to keep you interested.
Mr. RAINVILLE. You get stuck by a problem in class, and some-body else might have the answer. Did that never occur in the car?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Corwin, obviously, on your way home at least on a number of occasions you must have stopped somewhere. Did
you lock up the car when the briefcase was in the car, or did he always carry his briefcase with him?
What I am trying to ascertain is just how cautious he was about the briefcase.
Mr. CORWIN. I have no impression of caution or anything else, to be honest with you. We never stopped for anything except to drop
off members of the pool. We had no need to stop for any other pur-pose.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you ever ride home with him in 1946 or 1947?
Mr. CORWIN. Let’s see if I can remember. I may have. Yes. You see, I lived with him for a while. I am trying to remember when that was.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you ever have a regular system of riding home with him in those years?
Mr. CORWIN. The earlier years?
Mr. SCHINE. With Mr. Coleman.
Mr. CORWIN. At that time I think he was going to school, and he used to go in after work, something like that. So there was no pool.
I think I rode in with a couple of other fellows. We didn’t have a very well organized pool. This was a five-day pool. It was really
something to get into, because it meant you used the car but one day a week.
Mr. SCHINE. Can you imagine the circumstances under which Mr. Coleman might have brought himself to bring secret docu-ments
home and break security regulations?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, this particular incident that we were dis-cussing before—I know he was doing it in order to try and get work
done, things that he thought were needed in a hurry, and he didn’t have enough time during the day to do it. He felt they could accom-plish
the work at home.
Mr. SCHINE. Isn’t it true he brought a number of documents home with him, though?
Mr. CORWIN. That is my understanding. I know they were classi-fied. I don’t know exactly what the classification is.
Mr. SCHINE. Would he possibly need a number of bulky docu-ments at home to catch up on some work he might have had in one
specific job that he was doing?
Mr. CORWIN. I can imagine it is possible. I didn’t know enough of the details of his job to really answer. But I can imagine so. Be-cause
some of the documents are called technical manuals, that de-scribe other pieces of equipment, and they may just come in bulk.
You don’t need the whole thing, but you can’t excerpt any part of it, so you use the whole thing.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you try to give us the names of two or three individuals with whom Mr. Coleman is friendliest besides yourself
at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, outside of his business associates, I would say he probably knows Sam Levine very well.
Let’s see. There are other people who are not employed at Fort Monmouth.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you name their names, please?
Mr. CORWIN. I have it on the tip of my tongue, and I just can’t think of it.
Mr. SCHINE. Go to the next one, and then come back to that.
Mr. CORWIN. I know these people rather well. I don’t know them socially as he does.
Mr. SCHINE. Try to give us some of their names.
Mr. CORWIN. Benjamin Bookbinder.
Mr. SCHINE. Who else?
Mr. CORWIN. Jack Okum.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you spell it?
Mr. CORWIN. I think it is O-k-u-m. I am not sure.
Mr. SCHINE. Those are his closest friends?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I don’t know if you could say that. Okum is a very close friend of his.
Mr. SCHINE. Is Mr. Coleman very friendly with somebody else so-cially that he also works with at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. Additional people?
Mr. SCHINE. Yes. Does he have other close friends socially who also work at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. Offhand, I can’t remember any more than the names I have given you.
Mr. SCHINE. Bookbinder?
Mr. CORWIN. Bookbinder. Okum doesn’t work at the laboratory.
Mr. SCHINE. But Bookbinder does?
Mr. CORWIN. Bookbinder does, and Sam Levine.
Mr. SCHINE. What is Bookbinder’s job at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. He is employed in the same section.
Mr. SCHINE. He is employed in the same section.
Does he work for Mr. Coleman?
Mr. CORWIN. He did.
Mr. SCHINE. What about Mr. Ducore? Do you know the names of some of his close friends, some of Mr. Ducore’s close friends who
work at Fort Monmouth, and who are also close to him socially?
Mr. CORWIN. To tell you the truth, I don’t know. Our social con-tacts with the Ducores have dropped off in the last couple of years.
We don’t get together with them.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know of any close associates he has with whom he is friendly socially?
Mr. CORWIN. I can honestly tell you I don’t know. Of course, there is one man we all know. When I say ‘‘all,’’ I mean Coleman
and Ducore and myself. That is Bob Martin, Bernard Martin.
Mr. SCHINE. Who is Bernard Martin?
Mr. CORWIN. Who is he?
Mr. SCHINE. Yes.
Mr. CORWIN. Well, he was employed at Fort Monmouth, and his clearance was taken away. He has recently been suspended, too.
Mr. SCHINE. Why was his clearance taken away?
Mr. CORWIN. You see, he went through a loyalty hearing.  I guess it has been a year ago.
Mr. SCHINE. He discussed this with you?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, I attended the hearing.  I came as a character witness.
Mr. SCHINE. What is his last name?
Mr. CORWIN. Martin, M-a-r-t-i-n.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you tell us briefly what the charges against him were?
Mr. CORWIN. As I remember—I wouldn’t be able to give it to you word for word—he was a member of the AVC. That is the Amer-ican
Veterans Committee, I believe. And there was something about that he I think had a job in the air force at Watson Labora-tory
before they moved, and he was the security officer, something like that, not an official of the army but a civilian counterpart, and
had a lot of documents under his control.
Mr. SCHINE. Classified documents?
Mr. CORWIN. Classified; although I don’t know about the docu-ment in question. And that he had given some information or given
a document to a man who later was, so the statement said, found to be a Communist.
Mr. SCHINE. What was the name of the man?
Mr. CORWIN. I think it was Ullmann.
Mr. SCHINE. How do you spell that?
Mr. CORWIN. U-l-l-m-a-n, or something like that.
Mr. COHN. That is William Ludwig Ullmann. Is that correct?
Mr. CORWIN. Gee, that doesn’t sound right, I don’t know.
Mr. SCHINE. What were the other charges?
Mr. CORWIN. Those were the only two charges.
Mr. SCHINE. What did Bernard Martin tell you about his giving these classified papers to William Ludwig Ullmann?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, whatever his name is, that man was cleared for secret at the time he requested the documents, because every-body
in the installation had been cleared. To Martin’s knowledge, and I think he checked on it, this man was cleared at that time.
Whatever happened about this man happened at some later date.
Mr. SCHINE. Where was Ullmann working?
Mr. CORWIN. I guess he was out there with him.
Mr. SCHINE. At Fort Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. This isn’t Fort Monmouth.
Mr. SCHINE. Where was this?
Mr. CORWIN. The air force had taken over Watson Laboratory.  They released that to go to Rome or something like that. It was
when they were employed by the air force.
Mr. SCHINE. And did you know Ullmann?
Mr. CORWIN. I met him, but I didn’t know him.
Mr. SCHINE. What is Martin’s address, now?
Mr. CORWIN. He lives at 855 Woodgate Avenue in Elberon, New Jersey. I know that, because I lived there with him before I got married.
Mr. SCHINE. And have you seen Martin lately?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, I think within the past week I have seen him. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. And have you discussed all of these loyalty cases and suspensions with him?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. You see, I know these people very well. I have lived with him.
Mr. SCHINE. What does Bernard Martin have to say about all of this?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, as I explained in the second charge at the time that he gave the document, the classification nature of which
I don’t know, at the time he gave it this man was cleared by the air force people, and to his knowledge he had access to this equip-ment.
Mr. SCHINE. Did Bernard Martin say that Ullmann was a Com-munist party member?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. Not at that time.
Mr. SCHINE. He knows now that he is a Communist?
Mr. CORWIN. He read the charge, and he is assuming the charge is correct. I don’t know, as far as so-and-so being a Communist is concerned.
Mr. SCHINE. Martin is a friend of Ducore’s, too?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. SCHINE. Are they close friends?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t know. His friendship is closer than mine, let’s say, but I don’t think they are intimate friends.
Mr. SCHINE. They are not intimate?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know the names of the intimate friends of Ducore?
Mr. CORWIN. No. You see, we are not close enough with them to know.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know the names of some of the friends he had when you were close to him?
Mr. CORWIN. We were all part of his friends at that time.
Mr. SCHINE. Are there any other names you haven’t given us?
Mr. CORWIN. No. To tell you the truth, I don’t know.
Mr. CARR. Do you know Herman Schoenwetter?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. CARR. You don’t know him at all?
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Jones?
Mr. JONES. Just a few questions. Prior to the enactment of this new security system there, you said that you had in your safe at
several times secret documents?
Mr. CORWIN. I guess so. They are classified documents.
Mr. JONES. How many would you have? How many of these docu-ments would you have there at one time?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, let’s say quite a number of the classified con-fidential type. But just to give you a little background, our group
does not deal directly in a lot of this equipment. We are people who do the mechanical aspects of the job, and the information given to
us is all that we need in order to do our job.
Mr. JONES. And under the old system your secretary was respon-sible for those papers? In other words, she assigned them out and
all that?
Mr. CORWIN. She knew where they were, could lay her hands on them, had a signature from any person who borrowed the docu-ment
or was using it.
Mr. JONES. How many people were in your office under your im-mediate supervision?
Mr. CORWIN. Let’s say my section consists of roughly forty or forty-two people.
Mr. JONES. Forty-two people, each of whom had access, if they wished to, for their particular project, to this secret information?
Mr. CORWIN. If they were working on a particular project.
Mr. JONES. All they had to do was go up and sign with your sec-retary?
Mr. CORWIN. She knew what they were working on, and she would release the information to them. They are all cleared, of
course. Everyone in the area is.
Mr. JONES. Approximately, then, forty persons under your imme-diate supervision?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. But not all of them read the classified docu-ments, since a number of the people are, shall we say, mechanics,
people who don’t normally have any need for classified information.  But our engineers would.
Mr. JONES. But may I ask you this? It would be possible for anyone, we will say, skilled in the use of a small camera to actually
photograph any of these documents?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, in the first place, they had to get in with it.
Mr. JONES. Get in with what?
Mr. CORWIN. The camera, or whatever you are talking about.
Mr. JONES. A small camera?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, if he got through our guards, who I under-stand are pretty efficient, it would be rather difficult unless he
stood over somebody’s shoulder. And what would he be doing in our place if we don’t know him? We would look at anybody that came
in, to find out if he was a member, if he had a badge and so on.  Mr. JONES. I mean it would be possible for any of the employees
to do that, would it not?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I guess so, if they knew the person well enough.
Mr. JONES. Say I took out this document from your safe and brought it over to my desk. It would be possible for me, I am sure,
without anybody even seeing me, to take a picture of that document.
Mr. CORWIN. I guess it would.
Mr. JONES. Has there ever been an incident, to your knowledge, that occurred where a camera was used in the plant.
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, not that I know of. As a matter of fact, in the beginning we were cautioned never to bring in cameras.
Mr. RAINVILLE. You said: If he could look over his shoulder.  But I think Mr. Jones is referring to one of these forty-two people that
you have under you. They, themselves, could take pictures?
Mr. CORWIN. As far as we are concerned, we check with security to find out what these people are cleared for, and if they are not
cleared they can’t come into our area.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But any one of those forty-two people could, in the normal course of the day, come into your office with something
which you were to sign, or to leave it on your desk?
Mr. CORWIN. You see, the classified documents now are brought to the girl in transit even between our own people.
Mr. RAINVILLE. That is the new system. I mean prior to this, at any time. These people worked for you, and they are in this depart-ment,
and they have problems that you sometimes have to answer.  Any one of these forty-two people on any given day at any given
time might walk in and say, ‘‘Mr. Corwin, may I sign this?’’ or ‘‘May I have permission to do this?’’ or any one of a number of rou-tine
things. And they all have security clearance.
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAINVILLE. All top security clearance?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, there is another level called top secret. We don’t have it, because we don’t need it.
Mr. JONES. How many in your section have this secret clearance?
Mr. CORWIN. Everybody.
Mr. JONES. The entire forty? Even the mechanics?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. RAINVILLE. So that when you left this classified document on your desk, it would be perfectly all right for anyone in there to see
it and read it?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. But I must explain that we are careful in the way we handle our documents. If someone comes that doesn’t need
the information, the tendency is to put it to one side and turn it over. We are careful. Because there have been violations. It is
enough to make anybody——
Mr. RAINVILLE. But you said one other thing. You said it was un-usual even in these days.
Now, you haven’t had any secret documents, but in these days it was unusual to handle top secret documents?
Mr. CORWIN. We never handled top secret documents at all.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But even to handle secret documents was un-usual?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, because we don’t need the knowledge.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But the fact that it was an unusual thing—wouldn’t that make you realize that you had left that document out?
Mr. CORWIN. As I said before, I think the document had been of-ficially downgraded, but I had never gotten around to doing any-thing
about it.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But despite that you were penalized for leaving it out?
Mr. CORWIN. The story is that you are going to be penalized for what it says on it, because if you didn’t take care of it you should
be penalized for not doing it. How should I put it? It is not exactly your fault you didn’t do it, but it should have been done. It could
have been really secret, too. So, therefore, you are penalized.
Mr. JONES. In this car pool, then, Mr. Corwin, you say that only Coleman carried the briefcase, and only once in a while?
Mr. CORWIN. I will say that is all I can remember.
Mr. JONES. He would take that briefcase inside the plant and take it out again. Is that it?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. During a period of time there, some of our peo-ple were cleared to take in and out classified documents, and they
had a special pass signed by the commanding officer.
Mr. JONES. Coleman was one of these?
Mr. CORWIN. I am sure he must have been, according to the work that he did. I am pretty sure.
Mr. JONES. In other words, then, he could walk into the plant and leave the plant without having his briefcase inspected?
Mr. CORWIN. I believe that they did some inspection. To me it was always a little confusing, because I guess the guards are
cleared for secret, too, so I suppose they did look to see what the classification was on these sheets. And they examined this pass,
which stated exactly what they were allowed to take out.
Mr. JONES. Now, does that still hold true today?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. That stopped a number of years ago.
Mr. JONES. A number of years ago?
Mr. CORWIN. So far as I know.
Mr. RAINVILLE. There is one other thing I would like to ask about Mr. Coleman. You said only once had he taken classified docu-ments
home that you knew of, and that was when he got this rep-rimand.  Mr. CORWIN. Let me put it this way: I knew about the reprimand
and knew that he took out documents. I don’t know how many.
Mr. RAINVILLE. You assumed that that was the only occasion when he took out something when he was not supposed to?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. When I say ‘‘occasion’’—he may have taken them out over a period of time or something. I don’t really know.
Mr. RAINVILLE. The point I was getting to is that you stressed the fact that he was a very conscientious, hardworking fellow, that
he was a good engineer, and didn’t like to see his work pile up, and he took it home with him when he felt he had to. Of course, those
are all things you wouldn’t know unless he discussed it in the car with you that he was taking them home, that it was actually work
that was in that briefcase?
Mr. CORWIN. When he got the penalty, of course, we knew he was suspended, since we didn’t take him in.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But you say you didn’t know what was in the briefcase, it was never opened, in your memory, there was never
a discussion of what was in it, no reference, and yet you say he took work home because he was a conscientious, hardworking engi-neer
that wanted to finish up the details left on his desk at night, and that he processed them even to the point of taking them home
to work on them. Well, presumably, if you didn’t know what was in the briefcase, and he didn’t discuss it in the car with you, you
are a little bit psychic to know what he was doing?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, maybe I am not giving you these things in any chronological order. That is to say, when he got the penalty,
he discussed what had happened to him.
Mr. RAINVILLE. And then he told you he was conscientious and that he took his work home to process?
Mr. CORWIN. We said to him, to be frank with you: ‘‘You are pret-ty much of a damn fool to do anything like that.’’
We knew, though, that his work had been falling behind, and he told us.
Mr. RAINVILLE. That he had been doing that?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. I may not have been giving these statements in any kind of an order.
Mr. RAINVILLE. I was merely going to say, then: This could have been the one time that he was caught. Like the guy that is caught
speeding, and the one time he is caught is when he just barely broke the speed limit, instead of when he was going a hundred miles an hour.
Mr. SCHINE. It could have been. As well as you know him, it is entirely possible he could have taken secret documents home on other occasions?
Mr. CORWIN. I think that is possible. With the pass and every-thing else. I don’t even know why the pass existed at that time. Be-cause
it didn’t make sense to me. Now it certainly doesn’t make sense.
Mr. JONES. Have you ever seen a miniature camera?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. How miniature?
Mr. JONES. Oh, about this size [indicating].
Mr. CORWIN. Only in the movies.
Mr. JONES. You have never actually seen one, then?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, not physically.
Mr. JONES. At any time in traveling back and forth, has any one of then men in the car had a camera with him of any nature at all that you recall?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. Because, as I say, we certainly wouldn’t bring a camera to work. There is no point. You can’t bring it in.
Mr. JONES. Not a large camera, obviously.
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Because they are not camera bugs. None of the fellows you know make a hobby of taking pictures and photog-raphy?
Mr. CORWIN. As far as Sobell is concerned, he is the fellow I know least. I have no social contact with him.
Mr. COHN. Do you know this fellow, Dr. Yamins?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir. I don’t believe he has gotten his Ph.D.
Mr. COHN. Mr. Yamins. He has been chief of the radiation lab-oratory?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t think so. I think his position is liaison engi-neer for our people.
Mr. COHN. Liaison between your place and MIT. Is that right?
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. COHN. And your installation up at MIT. Now, have you spoke to Mr. Yamins lately?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. I haven’t seen him in quite a while, actually since he went to Boston.
Mr. COHN. Have you been told about any of the charges against him?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I haven’t.
Mr. COHN. Was he pretty friendly with Mr. Coleman?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, I would say they were friendly. I don’t think they had much social contact.
Mr. JONES. Friendly in what respect, then?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, they worked together, and it was a compan-ionship.
Mr. JONES. Scientific companionship more than a social compan-ionship?
Mr. CORWIN. I would say so, yes, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Mr. Corwin, you lived with Mr. Coleman, didn’t you?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir.
Mr. SCHINE. Would you give us the years you lived with him?
Mr. CORWIN. I will try, I think it was in ’46 or ’47, I am not too sure. We lived in a place called Port-au-Peck.
Mr. SCHINE. The address, please?
Mr. CORWIN. I think it was Vreeland Place, and that was Port-au-Peck, New Jersey.
Mr. SCHINE. Was anybody else living with you at that time?
Mr. CORWIN. Martin. The three of us.
Mr. SCHINE. Incidentally, what is Mr. Martin doing now?
Mr. CORWIN. Up until the time he was suspended, he was with Coleman.
Mr. SCHINE. What is his present job? Do you know what he is doing?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t quite understand. You mean at the moment what is he doing? Probably nothing.
Mr. SCHINE. You and Mr. Coleman and Mr. Martin all lived to-gether in 1946 and ’47?
Mr. CORWIN. Somewhere around then. It was for a very short pe-riod at the time, but I was sort of moving around from group of
fellows to group of fellows until I ultimately got married. Every time a fellow got married, there would be a breaking apart of the
household, and we would keep on re-forming.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you ever see classified documents around at that time?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir, I don’t remember seeing any.
Mr. COHN. Did Martin tell you this man, Ullmann turned out to be a member of a spy ring?
Mr. CORWIN. I read it in his charges. The charge was that he was found to be a Communist, words to that effect. I don’t think Martin
knew the fellow very well.
Mr. COHN. Was Ullmann’s name ‘‘William Ludwig Ullmann’’?
Mr. CORWIN. That doesn’t strike a responsive chord.
Mr. COHN. Where was Ullmann working?
Mr. CORWIN. That was at Watson Laboratory, which was part of the air force at that time.
Mr. COHN. Part of the air force; not at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. No, they had nothing to do with Monmouth.
Mr. COHN. Where is it located?
Mr. CORWIN. It is close to Monmouth. It is right outside of Red Bank.
Mr. SCHINE. When you lived with Martin and Coleman, did they ever discuss anything about the Communist movement at that time?
Mr. CORWIN. Not very much, I am afraid. I think our only con-versation was of a social nature. I guess we wanted to get married,
and our primary interest at that time was meeting girls and keep-ing our social contacts up. We certainly weren’t very politically-con-scious,
or I would have remember some discussions.
Mr. SCHINE. How do you spell Okum’s name?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t know, I think I said it. Was it O-a-k-u-m?  Something like that.
Mr. SCHINE. Did he ever work at Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir, he worked for Coleman.
Mr. SCHINE. He worked for Coleman.
Mr. CORWIN. That was quite a number of years ago,
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know the year specifically?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I don’t. I think it was up until the time that Coleman enlisted in the marine corps.
Mr. SCHINE. Was it around ’45 of ’46?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I guess it was earlier.
Mr. SCHINE. Earlier?
Mr. CORWIN. Maybe ’42, somewhere in there.
Mr. SCHINE. ’42. What was Okum’s job?
Mr. CORWIN. I think he was some kind of a clerk, that he did a clerical job.
Mr. SCHINE. Do you know what he is doing now?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes, sir. I don’t know in detail, but I think he is working for a local electronics outfit somewhere around our area.
Mr. SCHINE. When was the last time he was employed by the government?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, when Watson Laboratory, which was part of the air force moved to Rome, at lot of people who were employed
there did not want to go up with them, because there were a lot of physical hardships, so they quit.
Mr. SCHINE. That is Rome, New York?
Mr. CORWIN. No, they quit here at Watson.  I think he left at that time and found himself a job.
Mr. SCHINE. And he had access to classified material at the time?
Mr. CORWIN. At the time he was——
Mr. SCHINE [continuing]. Working for Coleman?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes. And I suppose when he worked for the air force he also had clearance. Now, he also went through a little problem, too.
Mr. SCHINE. Yes, he discussed that with you, didn’t he?
Mr. CORWIN. No, I didn’t know him very well. Coleman told me about it.
Mr. SCHINE. What did Coleman tell you?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, he told me that his clearance had been taken away, and I think Coleman came up as a witness on his behalf.
Mr. SCHINE. Why was his clearance taken away?
Mr. CORWIN. That I don’t know.
Mr. SCHINE. Did you know some of the charges that were against him?
Mr. CORWIN. I think it had to do with the local federal union, the Union of Public Workers, or something like that; that he was a member.
Mr. SCHINE. He was a member. And what were some of the other charges?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t know. That is the only thing we heard. Be-cause it seemed so odd to just be a member of the union, or what-ever it was.
Mr. SCHINE. There must have been some other charges against Okum.
Mr. CORWIN. I suppose so.
Mr. SCHINE. Where did you say Okum is now?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, he is out in that area.
Mr. SCHINE. He is working for some small electronic outfit.  What was his first name?
Mr. CORWIN. Jack Okum. Jack, as far as I know.
Mr. SCHINE. How do you spell that?
Mr. CORWIN. That makes the third try. I will not swear to it.  Maybe it is O-k-u-m.
Mr. SCHINE. How long has he been out of Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, the last place he left was the air force, to my knowledge.
Mr. SCHINE. That was Watson Laboratories?
Mr. CORWIN. Watson Laboratories.
Mr. SCHINE. And you don’t think he has been employed by the government since that time?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t believe so.
Mr. SCHINE. When did he leave Watson Laboratories?
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t know. I would say ’49 or ’50, maybe ’51.  Somewhere in that time.
Mr. SCHINE. And has he been employed at Fort Monmouth?
Mr. CORWIN. He was, way back.
Mr. SCHINE. Besides that early time when he worked for Cole-man?
Mr. CORWIN. Not that I know of. No, he wasn’t.
Mr. SCHINE. What was Coleman’s reaction to the fact that Okum had his clearance taken away? When he discussed it with you,
what did he say?
Mr. CORWIN. Well, he felt that there was no reason for it. Okum, of course, was cleared.
Mr. SCHINE. Oh, he was cleared.
Mr. CORWIN. Oh, yes, definitely.
Mr. SCHINE. But he didn’t go back to work?
Mr. CORWIN. No, sir. He went back to the air force and stayed with them up until this move. Yes, he was cleared, went back to work with them, stayed until this move started, and left.
Mr. RAINVILLE. The only question that ran through my mind: As I recall it now, Coleman, Martin, and Okum are the three people
that were very friendly with you.
Mr. CORWIN. No.
Mr. RAINVILLE. Not Okum so much as Coleman and Martin, with whom you lived?
Mr. CORWIN. Yes.
Mr. RAINVILLE. And Okum, you said, was very friendly with Coleman, worked for him, and you said was probably one of his
best friends not now working at the plant.  Were there any others besides those three that were suspended?
Mr. CORWIN. That were friends?
Mr. RAINVILLE. Yes, I mean that were in that group. I am trying to go through my notes and pull them together. I thought maybe
you could simplify it for me.
Mr. CORWIN. I don’t know what you mean, sir.
Mr. RAINVILLE. The only point that kept recurring to me is that almost every time you came up with the name of somebody who
was very friendly, or in the car pool, you came up with the fact that he was suspended. I thought maybe I was exaggerating it, so I
wanted to pull them all together.
Mr. CORWIN. No, to my knowledge Harold Ducore, who was in the car pool, and Aaron Coleman, in the car pool, have been sus-pended.
Mr. RAINVILLE. And Martin, who lived with you, was suspended.
Mr. CORWIN. That is right.
Mr. RAINVILLE. And Okum, whom you knew, even though he was a close friend of Coleman rather than your own?
Mr. CORWIN. He was never suspended. His clearance was taken away, and then he was cleared. That is not suspension. There is
a big difference. There is a monetary difference, too.
Mr. RAINVILLE. But it is the same all picture, a questioning of their security.
Mr. CORWIN. Well, clearing up——
Mr. RAINVILLE. A questioning of their security.
Mr. CORWIN. If you want to call it that.
Mr. CARR. I guess that is all, Mr. Corwin.  Thank you very much.

Page updated December 31, 2003    Page  created May 16, 2003